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imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-21 23:34

我认为的Mal'ta时代的欧亚七大种群

在eurogene ANE-K7的基础上增加了CHG与basal Papuan两种成分,前者去年已经被[size=4]证实是现代欧洲人的一种来自旧石器晚期的祖源成分之一(目前不太清楚CHG与之前的UHG成分的关系,可能就是一回事,也可能UHG是WHG与CHG的某种混合),后者我认为鉴于目前研究的不够深入,将来会越来越明晰。[/size][attach]49111[/attach]

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 00:02

[size=4]他们之间的距离大致如下:[/size][size=4]
[/size][attach]49112[/attach]

说明:尽管原始澳美人种的父系与E. E.人群比较接近(同为K2与C的混合),但是考虑到原始澳美人种与丹人深度混合,因而会产生较大的偏离。

MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-22 10:13

基本赞同,但是有些地方可以再调整一下。我觉得ASE的分布可以再往北画一点,东欧亚的分布也可以再往北一点。ANE可以再往北往西一点。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 12:01

[quote]基本赞同,但是有些地方可以再调整一下。我觉得ASE的分布可以再往北画一点,东欧亚的分布也可以再往北一点。ANE可以再往北往西一点。
[size=2][color=#999999]MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-22 10:13[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490402&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
     ASE的范围似乎是可以往北扩大一些,不过ANE我认为不能太北了,一是因为近北极地区人口太少,基本可以策略性地忽略,二是因为早期西伯利亚南部的ANE应该比现在高很多(我国庆节发的那篇论文已经分析了)。至于E.E.的早期位置,北部边界到吉辽边境就差不多了,不然无法解释美洲人当中为啥找不到y-N/O~

MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-22 14:34

[i=s] 本帖最后由 MNOPS 于 2016-10-22 14:40 编辑 [/i]

[quote]
     ASE的范围似乎是可以往北扩大一些,不过ANE我认为不能太北了,一是因为近北极地区人口太少,基本可以策略性地忽略,二是因为早期西伯利亚南部的ANE应该比现在高很多(我国庆节发的那篇论文已经分析了)。至于 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 12:01[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490414&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
难说啊,貌似近年来在中高纬度地区发现的史前人类遗骸不少,在有大型猎物的前提下我个人认为人类是可以在更高纬度生存的。

因纽特人好像有N吧,而且我认为E.E成分不一定就完全对应父系NO。印第安人虽然没有父系NO但是却有E.E成分。北美洲有一定比例的C2,显然父系C2也是E.E成分的携带者之一(甚至有可能C2是E.E成分的主要携带者而早期的NO特别是O可能携带了一定比例的ASE)。而且如果E.E画得太靠南的话也无法解释为何它会跟ANE一起进入美洲。所以,E.E可以再往北画一点,画到西伯利亚东部的沿海地区。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 16:35

[quote]
因纽特人好像有N吧,而且我认为E.E成分不一定就完全对应父系NO。印第安人虽然没有父系NO但是却有E.E成分。北美洲有一定比例的C2,显然父系C2也是E.E成分的携带者之一(甚至有可能C2是E.E成分的主要携带者而早期的NO特别是O可能携带了一定比例的ASE)。而且如果E.E画得太靠南的话也无法解释为何它会跟ANE一起进入美洲。所以,E.E可以再往北画一点,画到西伯利亚东部的沿海地区。
[size=2][color=#999999]MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-22 14:34[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490420&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
目前无法判断因纽特人的N是什么历史时期的人群带去的(后期的乌拉尔人或北欧人均有可能)。另外,北美的C2明显是后期东北亚北部人群带去的,在马尔他时期,C2人群是不是到达了东北亚北部还不好说,似乎可能性不大,不然在南美人群中应该可以看到。
    至于美洲人的E.E.,应该是马尔他时期之后西伯利亚东部人群与南方的E.E.主频人群密切接触所带去的,而且马尔他人群本身应该也带有明显的E.E.成分,这个在北欧人当中也可以观察到(我看到不少现代凯尔特人也带有一些E.E.成分>3%,应该是原始印欧人固有的成分之一)

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 17:19

[size=4]七大种群之间的关系与距离图[/size]
[attach]49121[/attach]

豢龙氏 发表于 2016-10-22 18:20

[quote]七大种群之间的关系与距离图
49121
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 17:19[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490433&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]不知道你是否注意到过之前一篇文章中关于各类成分分化情况的一个图。在这个图里的Basal Euraisan是最早分出来的,也明显与末次盛冰期形成的ENF成分相关。可能对应着最早分离出非洲外现代人的E单倍群,也对应着现代人族群七万年前出非洲后的第一次分化。其次分离出来的这个成分图里并没有表明,参与了巴布亚人的形成,我认为应该是现代人五万年前旧石器时代晚期的那次剧烈的分化,这一成分的根部是那次分化的基底,可以看作Basal ASE成分,是除Basal ENF成分外其他成分的原始成分,这一成分应与C和F这两单倍群都有联系。也是在五万年前,随着现代人族群的迁徙,WHG-CGH、E.E、ANE、ASE成分开始分化,末次盛冰期的到来减弱了不同成分间的交流,加深了这些成分间的分化。一直到末次盛冰期结束,各类成分之间才再次开始了融合的过程。总的来说,合久必分,分久必合。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 20:22

[b] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490439&ptid=34328]8#[/url] [i]豢龙氏[/i]
这个图看来存在如下几个明显的问题:
1、图中xOOA似乎代表y-C人群与其它CT人群的分离,而basal E.却是在其很久之后,这显然是不对的,从图中的东非西非人群的分离表述来看,显然作者搞错了两件事:1、Y-DNA发生树的结构;2、basal E.与出非洲时期东非人群的等同关系;
2、WHG+CHG与Y-K人群的分离时间(目前的数据约在45~50kya,与y-J的诞生时间大致一致),但是上图的描述显然不是这样。

我估计你这张图是早几年的,很多数据应该是明显过时了~

hercules 发表于 2016-10-22 21:07

这张图是最近才出来的,OoA的意思是out of africa,xOoa指的是大约十万年前的一批出非洲现代人,这些人大约贡献了澳洲土著百分之二的常染色体基因。其父系母系未知。

豢龙氏 发表于 2016-10-22 21:12

[quote] 8# 豢龙氏
这个图看来存在如下几个明显的问题:
1、图中xOOA似乎代表y-C人群与其它CT人群的分离,而basal E.却是在其很久之后,这显然是不对的,从图中的东非西非人群的分离表述来看,显然作者搞错了两件事:1、Y ...
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 20:22[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490450&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]估计你没看那片文章,这里面的XOOA代表的是上一批出非洲的现代人,也就是十万年前左右出非洲的那一批。这一批现代人并没有在Y染色体上留下直接的证据。只是在之前阿尔泰丹尼索瓦人的常染色体上分析到了可能是他们遗留下的成分。而这篇文章里考察了巴布亚人的常染,认为其同样带有丹尼索瓦人和这批“前现代人”的常染。并非是所谓y-C人群,CT是七万年前最后出非洲的一批现代人。所以估计你也误解了这个图的意思。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 21:23

[i=s] 本帖最后由 imvivi001 于 2017-2-17 21:25 编辑 [/i]

[b] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490462&ptid=34328]11#[/url] [i]豢龙氏[/i] [/b]
     感谢你的指出,如蒙提供原文认真看一下,则更好。

豢龙氏 发表于 2016-10-22 21:39

[i=s] 本帖最后由 豢龙氏 于 2016-10-22 21:41 编辑 [/i]

[quote] 11# 豢龙氏
     感谢你的指出,如蒙提供原文认真看一下,则更好。

      不过有一点,作者对WHG在发生树上的位置,以及basal E与东非人群的关系,显然是不准确的。
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 21:23[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490463&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]之前论坛里有人贴过这篇文章[url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/thread-34250-1-1.html]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/thread-34250-1-1.html[/url]
至于图里的东非我认为代表的是在受ENF影响前的原始东非人,而非指的是现代东非人的成分。而WHG我认为是在五万年前那次人类扩张过程中和E.E、ANE、ASE等成分同时开始分化的,这次扩张过程的分化可能集中在几千年的时间里,所以谁前分化出来、谁后分化出来实际上并不是那么重要,因为在分化之初这些人群都还是带有原始的基底成分,真正的分化是在之后漫长的两三万年里逐步完成的。画成一个三叉或四叉的树我认为并没有太大问题。同时我也在之前的帖子里提过,我认为这次扩张C和F是共同参与的。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 22:02

[b] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490466&ptid=34328]13#[/url] [i]豢龙氏[/i] [/b]以y-IJG为代表的WHG/CHG人群与y-F人群的分离大大早于y-K系内部的分化这是毋庸置疑的,尽管后者之后在隔离演化的过程中都不同程度地受到当地的Y-C人群的影响~

豢龙氏 发表于 2016-10-22 22:54

[i=s] 本帖最后由 豢龙氏 于 2016-10-22 22:59 编辑 [/i]

[quote] 13# 豢龙氏 以y-IJG为代表的WHG/CHG人群与y-F人群的分离大大早于y-K系内部的分化这是毋庸置疑的,尽管后者之后在隔离演化的过程中都不同程度地受到当地的Y-C人群的影响~
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 22:02[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490470&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]C1a是有可能和y-IJ相关的,也很可能是属于形成WHG-CHG成分的人群。K系更多是和C1b下游支系相关。当时的分化情况实际上是十分复杂的,简单的模型是很难说清楚的。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 23:20

[b] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490479&ptid=34328]15#[/url] [i]豢龙氏[/i] [/b]
我说的是以y-IJG为代表的WHG/CHG人群与y-F人群的分离大大早于y-K系内部的分化所对应的ANE/ASE/EE分化,这是毋庸置疑的,这是我质疑原文作者对最新数据把控能力的基础,至于原始WHG/CHG人群是否与C1a人群相关,这个与我们争论的主题无关~

豢龙氏 发表于 2016-10-22 23:46

[quote] 15# 豢龙氏
我说的是以y-IJG为代表的WHG/CHG人群与y-F人群的分离大大早于y-K系内部的分化所对应的ANE/ASE/EE分化,这是毋庸置疑的,这是我质疑原文作者对最新数据把控能力的基础,至于原始WHG/CHG人群是否与C1a人 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 23:20[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490483&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]我对于你这个“大大早于”的说法不知到该怎么理解,从yfull估算的分化时间来看,G与IJK分化的时间在48500年前,IJ与K的分化在47200年前,K下游支系的分化目前看集中在45400年前,前后总共两三千年的时间,这两三千年的时间里分化的人群能产生多大的差异,相对于之后两三万年相对独立的分化过程来说,这段时间能否配得上“大大”两个字,我是有疑问的。
从乌斯季末古人的DNA分析来看四万五千年前的古人可能还是带有多种成分的一种“原始”状态,而从欧洲的古DNA数据来看三万多年前的遗骨同样有检测出K和C1b支系,这些支系在WHG-CHG成分的形成的过程中扮演了什么样的角色目前也还很难说。
所以我说古人迁徙的情况可能是非常复杂的,简单的模型很难反映当时的情况。所以将WHG-CHG、ANE、EE成分处理成为三叉,虽然不够精确,但我不认为是错误。只是反映了五万到四万年前的那次现代人扩张过程。

MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-23 00:55

[quote]
目前无法判断因纽特人的N是什么历史时期的人群带去的(后期的乌拉尔人或北欧人均有可能)。另外,北美的C2明显是后期东北亚北部人群带去的,在马尔他时期,C2人群是不是到达了东北亚北部还不好说,似乎可能性不大, ...
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 16:35[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490427&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

N的下游支系情况我不是很清楚,但如果因纽特人的N真的是乌拉尔人或北欧人带去的,那么因纽特语为什么不是乌拉尔语系的?我觉得事情没你想得那么简单。


我不知道你对后期是怎么定义的,C2北支来到美洲的时间至少也得有万年左右了,这样的时间并不是很后期。而且南美北部的一些印第安部落确实发现了C2*,比如哥伦比亚的Wayuu人。我认为C2就是在东亚北部或东北亚起源,而不是不远万里从东南亚或南亚迁徙来的,否则的话无法解释为何C2到了美洲而NO没到,也无法解释为何亚洲南部的C1和C2分离了那么久。


你说美洲人群的E.E成分是后期通过跟其他人群接触而得来的。那么这个人群究竟是谁呢?印第安人没有NO,很显然带给印第安人E.E成分的不太可能是NO人群。最有可能的人群就是西伯利亚东部以父系C2母系CD为代表的人群。

MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-23 01:12

[quote]七大种群之间的关系与距离图
49121
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 17:19[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490433&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
ASE是不是对应着父系HL族群也很难说。东亚人普遍具有一些ASE成分,但却没有父系HL。我认为C*,C1,F2,D,甚至O的一些支系,可能都携带了一些ASE成分。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-23 08:10

[quote]我对于你这个“大大早于”的说法不知到该怎么理解,从yfull估算的分化时间来看,G与IJK分化的时间在48500年前,IJ与K的分化在47200年前,K下游支系的分化目前看集中在45400年前,前后总共两三千年的时间,这两三千年 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]豢龙氏 发表于 2016-10-22 23:46[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490485&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
之前对y-G与F(xG)的分离时间的判断有误,以为早于50kya,所以造成对WHG+CGH的分离时间的判断偏早。 不过即便是以48.5kya为依据,在发生树上也应该体现他们几个堂兄弟之间的发生学的位置与距离,但是原图可惜没有体现出这一点。
   当然,我承认,真正的情况应该比我们现在所知的要复杂

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-23 08:45

[b] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490486&ptid=34328]18#[/url] [i]MNOPS[/i] [/b]
[size=14px]N的下游支系情况我不是很清楚,但如果因纽特人的N真的是乌拉尔人或北欧人带去的,那么因纽特语为什么不是乌拉尔语系的?我觉得事情没你想得那么简单。[/size]
------------------------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]有一种语言被称为乌拉尔-西伯利亚语,其中正好包括因纽特语。[/color]

[size=14px]我不知道你对后期是怎么定义的,C2北支来到美洲的时间至少也得有万年左右了,这样的时间并不是很后期。而且南美北部的一些印第安部落确实发现了C2*,比如哥伦比亚的Wayuu人。我认为C2就是在东亚北部或东北亚起源,而不是不远万里从东南亚或南亚迁徙来的,否则的话无法解释为何C2到了美洲而NO没到,也无法解释为何亚洲南部的C1和C2分离了那么久。[/size]
----------------------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]我认为一万年与二万年大不相同,分别代表了两个完全不同的时代。如果南美发现了与东亚C2类型完全不同的C2*,那非常好,无疑有助于进一步揭示早期东欧亚人群迁徙到美洲的历史内幕,也可能有助于揭示南美人携带澳洲土著血统的内情。希望你能够提供美洲C2*数据的论文链接~[/color]


[size=14px]你说美洲人群的E.E成分是后期通过跟其他人群接触而得来的。那么这个人群究竟是谁呢?印第安人没有NO,很显然带给印第安人E.E成分的不太可能是NO人群。最有可能的人群就是西伯利亚东部以父系C2母系CD为代表的人群。[/size]
[size=14px]-----------------------------------------------[/size]
[size=14px][color=#0000ff]你可能没看明白我的原话,我的原话是旧石器末期北亚ANE主频人群本身就带有一定的EE成分,而且与EE主频人群比邻而居。那么,在y-Q主频人群东进(拜日朝觐代表团?)过程中,与EE主频人群混合或外族通婚进一步获取EE成分,应该是非常合理的。[/color][/size]
[color=#0000ff]因此早期进军美洲的北亚人群身上的EE成分有三个来源:1、自身固有的;2、东进途中进一步与东北亚的EE主频人群外族通婚;3、混合了一定的EE主频人群(如果南美洲的确存在C2*人群的话)[/color]

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-23 08:52

[quote]
ASE是不是对应着父系HL族群也很难说。东亚人普遍具有一些ASE成分,但却没有父系HL。我认为C*,C1,F2,D,甚至O的一些支系,可能都携带了一些ASE成分。
[size=2][color=#999999]MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-23 01:12[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490487&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
并非完全一一对应关系,以y-DNA标示主要是为了说明方便。我之前已经说明了,ASE很早就参与了亚美人种的形成,我上面的图也清楚无误地显示,这个与EE主频人群比邻而居的人群,覆盖的面积很广,当然可能会涵盖C*,C1,F2,D,甚至O的一些支系,只不过其主要Y类型无疑是HL~

豢龙氏 发表于 2016-10-23 11:03

[i=s] 本帖最后由 豢龙氏 于 2016-10-23 17:09 编辑 [/i]

[quote] 18# MNOPS
N的下游支系情况我不是很清楚,但如果因纽特人的N真的是乌拉尔人或北欧人带去的,那么因纽特语为什么不是乌拉尔语系的?我觉得事情没你想得那么简单。
--------------------------------------------- ...
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-23 08:45[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490493&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]关于南美人澳洲土著血统的来源,我可以提供一个可能的线索。巴西的一批据说是十七世纪土著印第安人的遗骨里,经检测有几例线粒体是南岛的B4a1a1,而两名男性的Y染也是类似波利尼西亚人的C1b,后来对常染分析,这几例遗骨与南岛人群的相似度有97%。可以肯定,这几个个体并非南美土著,而是来自波利尼西亚等南岛族群。至于他们是怎么到达南美的目前不得而知,或者是被欧洲殖民者裹挟来的,或者是自己从太平洋航行而来。那么如今南美所见的痕量类澳洲血统是否有可能是与这些“波利尼西亚人”交流的结果?已知的南岛族群最远已经到达的南美附近的复活节岛,他们是否有可能更近一步抵达美洲,目前还无证据,但也无法完全排除这种可能。
至于楼上有朋友提到的C2*,我也十分好奇,据我所知南美的C2应是和北美一样的P39支系下的,之前有篇论文研究显示南北美洲C2的共祖时间在8000到6000年间。*符号本身就是一个不确定的说法,很大情况下并不是指早期支系,而是指给出数据的研究者无法判断其支系而已。

hercules 发表于 2016-10-23 16:39

[quote]关于南美人澳洲土著血统的来源,我可以提供一个可能的线索。巴西的一批据说是十七土著印第安人的遗骨里,经检测有几例线粒体是南岛的B4a1a1,而两名男性的Y染也是类似波利尼西亚人的C1b,后来对常染分析,这几例遗骨 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]豢龙氏 发表于 2016-10-23 11:03[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490501&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]那篇文章分析得出亚马逊土著具有微量澳洲成分,其中有上世纪后半叶才发现的Karitiana人,不可能是那个别南岛人所能解释的。

Lep1dus 发表于 2016-10-23 18:02

没看过印度人分析的结果,不知道把HL对应ASE是否合适,关于印度,有个想法,就是印度可能存在两个不同的地域,沿海地带和内陆,这也许能解释为什么H单倍群为什么没大规模混入其他族群,H分化出来以后,可能是沿印度河北上后经恒河东进的,现在南亚人口最密集的地方就是在那里,而且历史上各种外来族群入侵基本也是沿着恒河东进,可以设想H最初也是这样走。而K下的支系基本是沿海岸线走的,所以在一段时期内双方互不干涉,总之东南亚和南亚族群用各种古成分分析能得出什么结果并不了解,不觉得ASE能划这么大,印度东北孟加拉两边人从长相到文化各种不一样,中南半岛历史上受印度影响很深,H也很少,L更不用说了,更早期是什么情况还不好下结论

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-23 18:22

周末无聊,摘取一段几个欧洲分子人类学爱好者 就‘欧洲的E.E.成分’展开的激烈讨论

[b]09-11-2014, 10:59 PM[/b][b] #31[/b]
[b] Fire Haired[/b]
[b]Veteran Member[/b]      Originally Posted by Jaxman  
      Mine. These are my DIY results as the GEDmatch version is still inaccurate.
15.64% ANE
3.11% ASE
56.76% WHG-UHG
1.56% East_Eurasian
0.38% West_African
0.33% East_African
22.21% ENF
-------------
[color=#0000ff]There's obvisouly some noise in there([b]1.56% east Eurasian[/b]?). All Europeans are scoring way to low in ENF. How much EEF did you score in Eurogene's EEF-WHG-ANE calculator?  Otzi scored about 60% ENF in this test, so just divide your ENF score by 60, to get an EEF score, and I bet you it's much lower than what you scored in that calculator. Davidiski is getting ANE K=7 results for my uncle using ADMIXTURE. That's what he used for Sardinians who got what look like deadly accurate results. I suggest you ask David to do the same for you. ([/color][color=#a0522d]这哥们是爱尔兰人,明显对自身的[b]1.56%的E.E.成分[/b]表示不理解难以接受[/color][color=#0000ff])[/color]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[b]09-11-2014, 06:24 PM [/b]
[b]#32 Jusarius (芬兰人)[/b]
Senior Member
Ethnicity:Finnish
Ancestry:Savonia
Country:
Y-DNA:N1c1
mtDNA:H3g

Originally Posted by Fire Haired
There's obvisouly some noise in there(1.56% east Eurasian?).
---------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]Why would it be noise? Why can't Europeans have (ancestral) East Eurasian as they have even ancestral South Eurasian, too?  Jaxman has Finnish ancestry so that's perfectly logical. My East Eurasian is [b]over 8%[/b].  [/color] ([color=#a0522d]这芬兰哥们试图以自身的高比例EE成分为例来开导这个号称“
Fire Haired火红头发”的爱尔兰坛友)[/color]
[b]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/b]


09-11-2014, 06:50 PM
[b]#33 Jusarius [/b]
[b]
Senior Member [/b]
Ethnicity:Finnish
Ancestry:Savonia
Country:
Y-DNA:N1c1
mtDNA:H3g


Originally Posted by Fire Haired  
All Europeans are scoring way to low in ENF.
------------------------
[color=#0000ff]No one has claimed ENF is equal to EEF in the previous calculator. EEF had WHG-like admixture.[/color] (他们是在谈论另外几种成分)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-11-2014, 09:25 PM
[b] #34 Fire Haired
Veteran Member [/b]
  
    Originally Posted by Jusarius  
    No one has claimed ENF is equal to EEF in the previous calculator. EEF had WHG-like admixture.
   -----------------------------
    [color=#0000ff]Yes I know that, but Otzi who is just about identical to EEF(Stuttgart) scored ~60% ENF. So, if English scored ~49% EEF in Laz 2013/14 they should score nearly 30% ENF. Also, the WHG component may have some middle eastern farmer in it, so it might be absorbing some ENF.  [/color](他们继续在谈论另外几种成分)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-11-2014, 09:32 PM(另一个凯尔特人加入)
[b]#35 Graham
Veteran Member [/b]

Location:West Lothian
Ethnicity:.
Ancestry:Cumbria, Scotland, Northumberland, Shetland
Country:
Y-DNA:R-L21*
mtDNA:K1C2a
Politics:Scottish Green Party


[color=#0000ff]66.85% WHG-UHG (Western European/Unknown Hunter-Gatherer)
15.27% ANE (Ancient North Eurasian)
14.64% ENF (Early Neolithic Farmer)
2.21% ASE (Ancestral South Eurasian )
0.04% East_Eurasian
0.11% West_African
0.88% East_African  [/color] (看来是在自报家门)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-11-2014, 10:17 PM
[b]#36 Jusarius
Senior Member [/b]


Originally Posted by Fire Haired  
Yes I know that, but Otzi who is just about identical to EEF(Stuttgart) scored ~60% ENF. So, if English scored ~49% EEF in Laz 2013/14 they should score nearly 30% ENF.
---------------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]That calculator based on Lazardis et al. included only three components so of course you can't directly compare components from it. Some of the WHG in the 3 components calculator maybe broken into different components in different populations. I mean it's not that simple that you just divide the three components with some fixed numbers as you are suggesting should be the case with the English.  [/color]((他们继续在谈论欧洲的WHG成分))
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-11-2014, 10:59 PM
[b] #37 Fire Haired [/b]
   
Originally Posted by Jusarius  
That calculator based on Lazardis et al. included only three components so of course you can't directly compare components from it. Some of the WHG in the 3 components calculator maybe broken into different components in different populations. I mean it's not that simple that you just divide the three components with some fixed numbers as you are suggesting should be the case with the English.
---------------------------------------
[color=#0000ff][b]Most Europeans don't have identifiable east Asian ancestry. IF they score in anything besides ENF, WHG, and ANE it's probably noise. Finns and BAlts are scoring almost no ENF, which is ridiculous because they defiantly have a big chunk of that form of ancestry.[/b][/color]  ([color=#8b0000]这哥们开始发飙,不同意芬兰坛友关于欧洲EE成分的看法,并且对包括芬兰人在内的波罗的海族群身上明显的EE成分露出嘲弄语气,似乎在嘲弄他们的东方祖先背景)[/color]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-11-2014, 11:30 PM
[b]#38 Jusarius
Senior Member [/b]
Ethnicity:Finnish
Ancestry:Savonia
Country:
Y-DNA:N1c1
mtDNA:H3g

Originally Posted by Fire Haired  
IF they score in anything besides ENF, WHG, and ANE it's probably noise. Finns and BAlts are scoring almost no ENF, which is ridiculous because they defiantly have a big chunk of that form of ancestry.
-----------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]Again, try to understand that as you increase the resolution (more components), most of the original ones are broken into separate new ones. For example WHG+UHG isn't equal to WHG in Lazardis. No population in Europe perfectly fitted the three populations model of Lazardis which means that the components in that masked something else. [/color]  ()
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

09-11-2014, 11:39 PM
[b]#39 Black Wolf [/b]
[b]Veteran Member [/b]
Ethnicity:European-Canadian
Y-DNA:J2a
mtDNA:U5b2
Religion:Pagan
  
Originally Posted by Fire Haired  
Most Europeans don't have identifiable east Asian ancestry. IF they score in anything besides ENF, WHG, and ANE it's probably noise. Finns and BAlts are scoring almost no ENF, which is ridiculous because they defiantly have a big chunk of that form of ancestry.
---------------------------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]Finns and North Russians do have identifiable East Eurasian ancestry. It can be called ENA (Eastern Non-African) in the words of Laz. [/color]  (这位欧洲裔加拿大人加入,指出芬兰人与俄国北部人的E,E成分比较高).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-12-2014, 12:01 AM
[b]#40 Fire Haired
Veteran Member [/b]

0   
   Originally Posted by Jaxman  (不明白为何此人有两个ID?)
   Finns and North Russians do have identifiable East Eurasian ancestry. It can be called ENA (Eastern Non-African) in the words of Laz.
---------------------------------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]Yes I know that, but if for example Irish are scoring [b]2% east Eurasian[/b] we know that's noise.[/color](他继续表示难以接受爱尔兰人携有2% east Eurasian成分这个事实)
--------------------------------------------------------------------



      09-12-2014, 12:01 AM
[b]#41 Fire Haired [/b]
[b]Veteran Member [/b]

0   
Originally Posted by Jusarius  
Again, try to understand that as you increase the resolution (more components), most of the original ones are broken into separate new ones. For example WHG+UHG isn't equal to WHG in Lazardis. No population in Europe perfectly fitted the three populations model of Lazardis which means that the components in that masked something else.
--------------------------------------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]Did you read Laz? Europeans fitting as descending from three ancestral populations was their big discovery. Maybe they don't trace every last drop of their blood to those populations, but we shouldn't see scored at 1% in east Eurasian or Sub Saharan[/color].(这哥们继续明显对凯尔特人带有东亚或次撒哈拉血统表示不可接受)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-12-2014, 12:11
[b] AM #42 Jusarius [/b]
[b]Senior Member [/b]
Ethnicity:Finnish
Ancestry:Savonia
Country:
Y-DNA:N1c1
mtDNA:H3g

0   
    Originally Posted by Fire Haired  
    Did you read Laz? Europeans fitting as descending from three ancestral populations was their big discovery. Maybe they don't trace every last drop of their blood to those populations, but we shouldn't see scored at 1% in east Eurasian or Sub Saharan.
--------------------------------------------
[color=#0000ff]That would be the case if the components in Polako's K7 were identical to the three ancestral components used in Lazardis. But they aren't! Polako himself said that for example ANE in K7 is not based on the MA-1 genome as in Lazardis. These calculators look at the truth from different angles and with different resolutions.  [/color](芬兰人继续耐心解释ANE)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-12-2014, 02:35 PM
#43 Grace O'Malley (看名字又是一个凯尔特人)
Veteran Member
Meta-Ethnicity:Irish (Gael)
Ethnicity:Gael-Astralaigh
Ancestry:Ireland
Y-DNA:M222
mtDNA:J1C3f


Apparently this has been fixed on Gedmatch. It wasn't giving correct results before.

Mine
Population
ANE 16.92%
ASE 1.02%
WHG-UHG 63.89%
East_Eurasian 1.17%
West_African -
East_African 0.20%
ENF 16.82%

Mum
Population
ANE 17.17%
ASE 1.75%
WHG-UHG 62.95%
East_Eurasian 0.61%
West_African -
East_African 0.45%
ENF 17.07%

Brother
Population
ANE 16.82%
ASE 1.65%
WHG-UHG 64.03%
East_Eurasian 0.75%
West_African 0.49%
East_African 0.16%
ENF 16.10%

Daughter
Population
ANE 15.44%
ASE 1.80%
WHG-UHG 64.26%
East_Eurasian 0.75%
West_African -
East_African 0.53%
ENF 17.23%  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


09-12-2014, 03:49 PM
[b] #44 Mortimer [/b]
[b]Veteran Member [/b]
Location:Small Town in Austria
Meta-Ethnicity:Romani Gypsy of World(吉普赛人?)
Ethnicity:SRB-Banat Romani Gypsy
Ancestry:Serbia Voivodina
Y-DNA:E-V13
mtDNA:T2b5
Taxonomy:Pontid + some Indobrachid (and some Alpine)~All In &Alpinized-Dinaric with some Indobrachid~Mn1
Politics:Socially Conservative/Religious-Right; Economically Center-Left
Hero:The Pope Francis, Virgin Mary
Religion:Eastern-Orthodoxy
Age:33

[color=#0000ff]Population [/color]
[color=#0000ff]ANE 15.60%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]ASE 6.22%(看上去南印度血统并不是太高)[/color]
[color=#0000ff]WHG-UHG 35.38%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]East_Eurasian 3.15%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]West_African 0.14%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]East_African 1.34%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]ENF 38.17% [/color]

[color=#00ff]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color]

[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#000000]09-12-2014, 04:22 PM[/color]
[color=#000000][b] #45 Geni [/b][/color]
[color=#000000][b]Veteran Member [/b][/color]
[color=#000000]Meta-Ethnicity:Albania R1b[/color]
[color=#000000]Ethnicity:Albanian[/color]
[color=#000000]Ancestry:Albanians[/color]
[color=#000000]Country:[/color]
[color=#000000]Y-DNA:R1b Z 2109[/color]
[color=#000000]mtDNA:J1[/color]
[color=#000000]Hero:Gjergj Kastrioti[/color]
[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#0000ff]Population [/color]
[color=#0000ff]ANE 10.70%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]ASE 1.51%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]WHG-UHG 42.44%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]East_Eurasian 0.44%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]West_African 0.15%[/color]
[color=#0000ff]East_African - [/color]
[color=#0000ff]ENF 44.77% .[/color]
[color=#00ff]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color]

[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#000000]09-12-2014, 06:19 PM[/color]
[color=#000000][b] #46 Jusarius [/b][/color]
[color=#000000][b]Senior Member [/b][/color]
[color=#000000]Ethnicity:Finnish[/color]
[color=#000000]Ancestry:Savonia[/color]
[color=#000000]Country:[/color]
[color=#000000]Y-DNA:N1c1[/color]
[color=#000000]mtDNA:H3g[/color]


[color=#00ff]Zero ENF for me now! [/color]

[color=#00ff]ANE 20.78%[/color]
[color=#00ff]ASE 2.69%[/color]
[color=#00ff]WHG-UHG 67.88%[/color]
[color=#00ff][b]East_Eurasian 8.02%[/b][/color]
[color=#00ff]West_African - [/color]
[color=#00ff]East_African 0.59%[/color]
[color=#00ff][b]ENF - 0 [/b][color=#000](现在知道欧洲人南北之间差异是多么的大吧,呵呵)[/color][/color]
[color=#00ff]----------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color]


[color=#000000]09-12-2014, 08:57[/color]
[color=#000000][b] PM #47 Black Wolf [/b][/color]
[color=#000000][b]Veteran Member [/b][/color]
[color=#000000]           [/color]
[color=#000000]Meta-Ethnicity:Euro-Mutt[/color]
[color=#000000]Ethnicity:European-Canadian[/color]
[color=#000000]Country:[/color]
[color=#000000]Y-DNA:J2a[/color]
[color=#000000]mtDNA:U5b2[/color]
[color=#000000]Religion:Pagan[/color]


[color=#00ff]2    [/color]
[color=#00ff]The GEDmatch version of this calculator seems to be much more accurate now. Here are my own GEDmatch results.[/color]

[color=#00ff]Population [/color]
[color=#00ff]ANE 15.61%[/color]
[color=#00ff]ASE 3.18%[/color]
[color=#00ff]WHG-UHG 57.33%[/color]
[color=#00ff]East_Eurasian 1.50%[/color]
[color=#00ff]West_African 0.62%[/color]
[color=#00ff]East_African 0.15%[/color]
[color=#00ff]ENF 21.61%   [/color]
[color=#00ff]------------------------------------------------------------------[/color]

[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#000000]09-12-2014, 08:59 PM[/color]
[color=#000000][b] #48 Black Wolf [/b][/color]
[color=#000000][b]Veteran Member [/b][/color]
[color=#000000]Ethnicity:European-Canadian[/color]
[color=#000000]Country:[/color]
[color=#000000]Y-DNA:J2a[/color]
[color=#000000]mtDNA:U5b2[/color]
[color=#000000]Religion:Pagan [/color]
[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#000000]
[/color]
[color=#000000]0    [/color]
[color=#000000] Originally Posted by Jusarius  [/color]
[color=#000000]That would be the case if the components in Polako's K7 were identical to the three ancestral components used in Lazardis. But they aren't! Polako himself said that for example ANE in K7 is not based on the MA-1 genome as in Lazardis. These calculators look at the truth from different angles and with different resolutions.[/color]
[color=#000000]----------------------------------------------[/color]
[color=#00ff]What do you think about the origins of the WHG-UHG component? It reaches it's highest frequencies among the Mesolithic samples such as La Brana but Polako said that it was probably present among the first Neolithic farmers of the Fertile Crescent as well as a minor component to ENF. What do you think about this I am curious?   [/color]
[color=#00ff]-------------------------------------------------------------------------[/color]


[color=#000000]09-12-2014, 09:12 PM[/color]
[b][color=#000000] #49 Alessio [/color][/b]
[b][color=#000000]Location:Amsterdam[/color][/b]
[color=#000000]Meta-Ethnicity:Germanic/Latin[/color]
[color=#000000]Ethnicity:South Italian/North-Dutch[/color]
[color=#000000]Ancestry:South Italian(Campanian/Neapolitan)/North-Dutch(Angelen, Saksen, Frisii ) Frisian nobility ancestry[/color]
[color=#000000]Country:[/color]
[color=#000000]Region:[/color]
[color=#000000]Y-DNA:R1b1b2a1a2d (R1b-U152)[/color]
[color=#000000]mtDNA:K2a[/color]
[color=#000000]Taxonomy:Dinaricized gracile Med + CM[/color]
[color=#000000]Politics:Justice & Peace[/color]
[color=#000000]Hero:C.S Lewis[/color]
[color=#000000]Religion:Christian[/color]
[color=#000000]Age:27[/color]

[color=#00ff]0    [/color]
[color=#00ff]Population [/color]
[color=#00ff]ANE 12.28% Ancestral Northern European[/color]
[color=#00ff]ASE 0.74% Ancestral South Eurasian[/color]
[color=#00ff]WHG-UHG 48.43% Western European/Unknown Hunter-Gatherer[/color]
[color=#00ff]East_Eurasian 0.82%[/color]
[color=#00ff]West_African 0.07%[/color]
[color=#00ff]East_African 0.27%[/color]
[color=#00ff]ENF 37.39% Early Neolithic Farmer [/color]
[color=#00ff]-------------------------------------------------------------------[/color]

[color=#00ff]09-12-2014, 09:19[/color]
[color=#00ff] PM #50 Alessio [/color]

[color=#00ff]0    [/color]
[color=#00ff]Tuscan/Abruzesse/Campanian/English[/color]

[color=#00ff]Population [/color]
[color=#00ff]ANE 13.21%[/color]
[color=#00ff]ASE 2.17%[/color]
[color=#00ff]WHG-UHG 51.54%[/color]
[color=#00ff]East_Eurasian 0.08%[/color]
[color=#00ff]West_African 0.65% [/color]
[color=#00ff]ENF 32.35% [/color]

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-23 18:32

[quote]没看过印度人分析的结果,不知道把HL对应ASE是否合适,关于印度,有个想法,就是印度可能存在两个不同的地域,沿海地带和内陆,这也许能解释为什么H单倍群为什么没大规模混入其他族群,H分化出来以后,可能是沿印度河 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]Lep1dus 发表于 2016-10-23 18:02[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490523&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
现代印度主要是两大成分,即ANI与ASI(当年赖希Reich只因为分析出这两大成分而在古人类的aDNA研究领域扬名立万),前者主要是来自ANE/CGH/WHG,后者主要是来自ASE

MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-23 23:05

[i=s] 本帖最后由 MNOPS 于 2016-10-23 23:09 编辑 [/i]

[quote] 18# MNOPS
N的下游支系情况我不是很清楚,但如果因纽特人的N真的是乌拉尔人或北欧人带去的,那么因纽特语为什么不是乌拉尔语系的?我觉得事情没你想得那么简单。
--------------------------------------------- ...
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-23 08:45[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490493&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
我没找到你所说的乌拉尔-西伯利亚语系,倒是找到了乌拉尔-尤卡吉尔语系,其中并不包括因纽特语。

C2跟澳洲土著没关系。蒙古人种C2跟澳洲土著的C1支系已经分离了很长时间了,他们之间的关系并不比MNOPS各支系之间的关系更近。南美的澳美血统应该不是来源于C2。
而且我也不认为一万多年前算是晚近。近几千年来的人群迁徙要比万年多之前的规模大得多。一万多年前跟两万多年前虽然有差异,但不会像近几千年来变化这么大。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 08:47

[quote]
我没找到你所说的乌拉尔-西伯利亚语系,倒是找到了乌拉尔-尤卡吉尔语系,其中并不包括因纽特语。

C2跟澳洲土著没关系。蒙古人种C2跟澳洲土著的C1支系已经分离了很长时间了,他们之间的关系并不比MNOPS各支系之间 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-23 23:05[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490535&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
你在维基输入uralo-siberian languages即可。

另外,C2的某些支系在东亚的历史仍然模糊不清,还不能与澳洲土著完全脱离干系,或许需要更多的数据观察~

MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-24 09:00

[i=s] 本帖最后由 MNOPS 于 2016-10-24 09:08 编辑 [/i]

[quote]
你在维基输入uralo-siberian languages即可。

另外,C2的某些支系在东亚的历史仍然模糊不清,还不能与澳洲土著完全脱离干系,或许需要更多的数据观察~
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 08:47[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490546&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
东亚有C2但是并没有澳美人种Basal Papuan,显然C2跟澳洲土著的Basal Papuan没关系。我认为C2对应的就是E.E。
另外我查到了uralo-siberian languages。维基上说这只是一个假说,而且并没有获得广泛认同。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 09:08

[quote]
东亚有C2但是并没有澳美人种Basal Papuan,显然C2跟澳洲土著的Basal Papuan没关系。我认为C2对应的就是E.E。
[size=2][color=#999999]MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-24 09:00[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490547&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
现在恐怕还不能下这个结论until eurogene ANE_K9 test(with basal Papuan along)is released~

MNOPS 发表于 2016-10-24 09:11

[quote]
现在恐怕还不能下这个结论until eurogene ANE_K9 test(with basal Papuan along)is released~
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 09:08[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490548&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
你为什么这么确定C2一定是跟澳洲土著有联系?难道只是因为C1和C2都是C而已?那NO和MS还都是K2的下游呢,这你怎么就不说了?

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 13:24

[b] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490549&ptid=34328]32#[/url] [i]MNOPS[/i] [/b]
都有可能,在最新的B.Papuan test数据出来之前,暂时无法明确什么,可能现代东亚人会有极少量的B.P.血统,这也是正常的,无须大惊小怪。

乌-西语尽管是假说,但起码说明二者很早之前有密切接触,这就够了。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 13:37

[size=3][color=#0000ff]一个俄国坛友问:何谓ASE? 另一个犹太坛友答曰如下(下面深褐色加黑部分),令人忍俊不禁。有时候,熟读塔尔穆德的犹太人尤其是阿什肯纳齐犹太人还是蛮可爱的,呵呵[/color][/size]

[list=1][*]10-31-2014, 05:54 PM [url=http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?138956-Eurogenes-ANE-K7-post-your-results&p=3100205&viewfull=1#post3100205]#84[/url]
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[img]http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.png[/img] [indent]
[img]http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/img] Originally Posted by [b]Jackson[/b] [url=http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3100188#post3100188][img]http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/img][/url]
Actually just realised the results have changed since i last posted, here are my new ones. Less noisy by the looks of it:




[size=4][color=#a0522d]What's ASE?[/color][/size]

Population
ANE 20.13%
[b]ASE 2.92%[/b]
WHG-UHG 63.63%
East_Eurasian 2.89%
West_African 0.58%
East_African 0.34%
ENF 9.51% [/indent][*]10-31-2014, 05:55 PM [url=http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?138956-Eurogenes-ANE-K7-post-your-results&p=3100207&viewfull=1#post3100207]#85[/url]
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[indent]
[img]http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/img] Originally Posted by [b]Not a Cop[/b] [url=http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3100205#post3100205][img]http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/img][/url]
[size=4][color=#a0522d]What's ASE?[/color][/size]


[size=4][color=#8b0000][b]
The stuff Aryans are made of. [/b][/color][/size][/indent]


[indent][font=Arial Black][b]Who is rich? He who is happy with what he has - Simeon ben Zoma, Ethics of the Fathers, Talmud, Avot [/b][/font][/indent][/list]

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 13:44

[quote]
现代印度主要是两大成分,即ANI与ASI(当年赖希Reich只因为分析出这两大成分而在古人类的aDNA研究领域扬名立万),前者主要是来自ANE/CGH/WHG,后者主要是来自ASE
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-23 18:32[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490525&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
这里修正一下,恐怕ANI的形成也会有一定量的ASE的参与~

shuer 发表于 2016-10-24 15:35

哪位大侠能解释一下ASE是什么成分,怎么东亚人普遍有这个成分,有的还不低?我理解的是一种东南亚采集人群的成分,不知道是否正确。

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 19:59

[b] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490577&ptid=34328]36#[/url] [i]shuer[/i] [/b]
关于ASE还真不容易一下子说得清楚,因为它不像ANE/ WHG/ ENF这些已经有专门的权威性学术论文根据aDNA做的分析,似乎ASE目前还没有权威性的论文问世,总之,它泛指一种来自很早之前源自南亚地区特有的常染成分(ancient south Eurasian)。至于eurogene ANE-K7项目组是如何确定这种成分的,目前也找不到权威性的说法,我猜测是根据Reich的ASI研究成果再结合现代南亚地区的特色常染与其他地区人群成分作对比,也可能内部参照了古哈拉帕文化人群aDNA的数据,不过这仅仅是猜测。
ASE成分在整个欧亚大陆普遍存在,也昭示其起源地在欧亚大陆所处的独特的地理位置,相对而言,因为其位置因素,因此在东亚人群当中要比西欧亚人群多一些(具体看情况,因族群而异)

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-24 21:08

[quote][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/attachments/forumid_28/1610221719d7e9f9e8b4f45665.jpg[/img]
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-22 17:19[/color] [url=http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=490433&ptid=34328][img]http://ranhaer.s47-56.myverydz.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]

[size=4]根据这篇刚刚出炉的论文,上面的树结构关于basal Papuan部分需要修改一下(似乎正好对应CF分离那一次,时间大约是 51–72 kya[/size])
A genomic history of Aboriginal Australia : Nature : Nature Research [url]http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v538/n7624/full/nature18299.html[/url]


[size=3]A genomic history of Aboriginal Australia[/size]

Anna-Sapfo Malaspinas,
Michael C. Westaway,
Craig Muller,
Vitor C. Sousa,
Oscar Lao, Isabel Alves,
Anders Bergström,
Georgios Athanasiadis,
Jade Y. Cheng,
Jacob E. Crawford,
Tim H. Heupink,
Enrico Macholdt,
Stephan Peischl,
Simon Rasmussen,
Stephan Schiffels,
Sankar Subramanian,
Joanne L. Wright,
Anders Albrechtsen,
Chiara Barbieri, Isabelle Dupanloup,
Anders Eriksson,
Ashot Margaryan,
Ida Moltke,
Irina Pugach,
Thorfinn S. Korneliussen
et al.
AffiliationsContributionsCorresponding authors
Nature 538, 207–214 (13 October 2016) doi:10.1038/nature18299
Received 02 October 2015 Accepted 04 May 2016 Published online 21 September 2016
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[size=3]Abstract[/size]
Abstract• References• Author information• Extended data figures and tables• Supplementary information

The population history of Aboriginal Australians remains largely uncharacterized. Here we generate high-coverage genomes for 83 Aboriginal Australians (speakers of Pama–Nyungan languages) and 25 Papuans from the New Guinea Highlands. We find that Papuan and Aboriginal Australian ancestors diversified 25–40 thousand years ago (kya), suggesting pre-Holocene population structure in the ancient continent of Sahul (Australia, New Guinea and Tasmania). However, all of the studied Aboriginal Australians descend from a single founding population that differentiated ~10–32 kya. We infer a population expansion in northeast Australia during the Holocene epoch (past 10,000 years) associated with limited gene flow from this region to the rest of Australia, consistent with the spread of the Pama–Nyungan languages. We estimate that Aboriginal Australians and Papuans diverged from Eurasians 51–72 kya, following a single out-of-Africa dispersal, and subsequently admixed with archaic populations. Finally, we report evidence of selection in Aboriginal Australians potentially associated with living in the desert.

imvivi001 发表于 2016-10-25 09:34

[i=s] 本帖最后由 imvivi001 于 2016-10-25 09:42 编辑 [/i]

[font=Bitter, Georgia,][url=http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Ust-Ishim-Admixture.jpg][img=266,150]http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Ust-Ishim-Admixture-300x169.jpg[/img][/url][/font]
[font=Bitter, Georgia,][url=http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Malta-Admixture.jpg][img=300,71]http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Malta-Admixture-300x71.jpg[/img][/url][/font]
清晰度不够高,等一下再认真找一下原图~

Lep1dus 发表于 2016-10-25 11:45

[i=s] 本帖最后由 Lep1dus 于 2016-10-25 11:48 编辑 [/i]

[attach]49142[/attach]感觉东亚和南亚是不同的,不过这里中亚和南亚里面主要好像都是偏中亚,偏南印度的没有,维吾尔和哈扎拉有东亚成分不奇怪

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