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sahaliyan 发表于 2017-4-8 19:02

Steppe migrant thugs pacified by Stone Age farming women

Date:April 4, 2017Source:Faculty of Science - University of CopenhagenSummary:When present day European genetics was formed during the beginning of the Bronze Age 5,000 years ago it was a result of migrating Yamnaya pastoralists from the Caspian steppe encountering Stone Age farmers in northern and eastern Europe. A grand synthesis article argues that young Yamnaya warriors belonging to raiding parties married local Stone Age women, settling and adopting a more agrarian lifestyle. During this process, where the Corded Ware Culture was formed, a new Proto-Germanic dialect appeared.In an earlier study Professor Kristian Kristiansen from the University of Gothenburg in Sweden and Lundbeck Foundation Professor Eske Willerslev from the Centre for GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen, and their research teams, showed that the large demographic changes during the first part of the Bronze Age happened as a result of massive migrations of Yamnaya people from the Pontic-Caspian steppes into Neolithic Europe. They were also able to show that plague was widespread in both Europe and Central Asia at this time.
Now Professor Kristiansen and Professor Willerslev with co-authors reveal a more detailed view of the mechanism behind the emerging culture known as the Corded Ware Culture -- the result of the encounter between the Yamnaya and the Neolithic people. Professor Kristian Kristiansen says: "We are now for the first time able to combine results from genetics, strontium isotopes on mobility and diet, and historical linguistics on language change, to demonstrate how the integration process unfolded on the ground after the Yamnaya migrations from the steppe. In our grand synthesis we argue that Yamnaya migrants were predominantly males, who married women who came from neighbouring Stone Age farming societies" These Stone Age Neolithic societies were based on large farming communities reflected in their collective burial ritual often in big stone chambers, so called megaliths. Very different from the traditions of the incoming migrants.
[b]The origin of the Yamnaya[/b]
The Yamnaya people originated on the Caspian steppes where they lived as pastoralists and herders, using wagons as mobile homes. From burial pits archaeologists have found extensive use of thick plant mats and felt covers. Their economy was based on meat, dairy products and fish, they were tall and rather healthy with little caries in their teeth. No agriculture is documented. Barrows were aligned in groups forming lines in the landscape to mark seasonal routes and after death diseased people were put into individual graves under small family barrows. Their burial ritual thus embodied a new perception of the individual and of small monogamous family groups as the foundation of society. The continent encountered by the Yamnaya people around 3000 BC had seen a decline in the agrarian Stone Age societies, thereby allowing space for incoming migrants. This decline was probably the result of a widespread plague from Siberia to the Baltic.
"The disease dynamic here may have been comparable to the European colonization process in America after Christopher Columbus," says Kristiansen. "Perhaps Yamnaya brought plague to Europe and caused a massive collapse in the population."
[b]"Black Youth" as migrating males and their marriage to Neolithic women[/b]
In the new synthesis article, Kristiansen and colleagues argue for a dominance of males during the early phase after the migrations, and correspond to the old Indo-European mythology of later times. These sources talk about war-bands of youths -- called "Black Youth" -- who were employed in pioneer migrations as a dynamic force. Evidence from strontium isotopic analyses, published in 2016 by Kristiansen together with Douglas Price and Karl Goran Sjogren, showed that a majority of the women in Corded Ware burials in south Germany were non-locals who had married in from Neolithic societies, since they had a Neolithic diet in their childhood. These results now form part of the new synthesis. Professor Kristian Kristiansen says: "Existing archaeological evidence of a strong 90% male dominance in the early phase of the Corded Ware/Single Grave Culture settlement in Jutland, Denmark, and elsewhere can now be explained by the old Indo-European tradition of war bands of young males who did not have any inheritance to look forward to. Therefore they were probably more willing to make a career as migrating war bands."
These Neolithic women also brought new knowledge of pottery production, and started to imitate pottery containers made of wood from the Yamnaya migrants. In this way a new pottery culture was created called Corded Ware, because of the cord impressions around the neck of the pots. They were made for beer drinking, and the new migrants also learned how to grow barley from the in-married Neolithic women in order to produce beer.
[b]Rapid genetic changeover from Neolithic to Corded Ware cultures after 3000 BC[/b]
Eske Willerslev undertook the ancient DNA analyses together with Morten Allentoft and Martin Sikora. Professor Willerslev says:
"In our big Bronze Age study, published in 2015 we were astonished to see how strong and fast the genetic changeover was from the Neolithic to the Corded Ware. There was a heavy reduction of Neolithic DNA in temperate Europe, and a dramatic increase of the new Yamnaya genomic component that was only marginally present in Europe prior to 3000 BC. Moreover, the apparent abruptness with which this change occurred indicates that it was a large-scale migration event, rather than a slow periodic inflow of people."
[b]New words and new Proto-Germanic dialect[/b]
The Yamnaya brought the Indo-European languages into Bronze Age Europe, but as herders, they did not have words for crops or cultivation, unlike the Neolithic farmers. As the Corded Ware Culture developed it adopted words related to farming from the indigenous Neolithic people, which they were admixing with. Guus Kroonen, a historical linguist, was able to demonstrate that these new words did not belong to the original Indo-European languages. Therefore it was possible to conclude that the Neolithic people were not speaking an Indo-European language, as did the Yamnaya migrants. Thus, the process of genetic and cultural admixture was accompanied by a process of language admixture, creating the foundations for later Germanic languages, termed Proto-Germanic.
[b]The birth of the Bronze Age[/b]
The Yamnaya migrations from the Pontic-Caspian steppe into temperate Europe changed the course of history: they brought not only a new language, but also new ideas about how society was organized around small monogamous families with individual ownership to animals and land. This new society became the foundation for the Bronze Age, and for the way European societies continued to develop to the present.

[url=https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170404084429.htm]https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/04/170404084429.htm[/url]

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-8 22:03

呵呵,又是Eske Willerslev,希望这位一直活跃的北欧博士这次能改掉嘴大脑小的毛病,呵呵~

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-8 23:03

"Black Youth"什么典故?

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-8 23:59

[quote]"Black Youth"什么典故?
[size=2][color=#999999]lindberg 发表于 2017-4-8 23:03[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500703&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.org/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
没啥典故,我看就是Eske Willerslev一伙根据他们Viking祖先曾经存在的某些强盗行为总结的某些特性罢了

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-9 00:05

历史上的北欧人的确以做强盗出名(这也是临近的不列颠人讨厌他们的主要原因),但是这绝不代表所有的北欧人都是强盗,做强盗的毕竟是少数。
咱们就等着看好戏吧,估计掉嘴大脑小的Eske Willerslev的这篇漏洞百出的文章问世后,会再一次被欧洲明眼人骂死,呵呵~

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-9 00:55

[color=#ff0000]Professor Kristian Kristiansen says: "Existing archaeological evidence of a strong 90% male dominance in the early phase of the Corded Ware/Single Grave Culture settlement in Jutland, Denmark, and elsewhere can now be explained by the old Indo-European tradition of war bands of young males who did not have any inheritance to look forward to. Therefore they were probably more willing to make a career as migrating war bands." [/color]不知道这位教授什么意思:好像是说一伙武装先遣队,解释他们的这种迁徙暴力只是一种职业行为,而不是印欧人的文化传统。

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-9 11:09

为了避免本坛新会员被Willerslev误导,就简略点评一下此公文章的明显谬误之处,如下:
When present day European genetics was formed during the beginning of the Bronze Age 5,000 years ago it was a result of migrating Yamnaya pastoralists from the Caspian steppe encountering Stone Age farmers in northern and eastern Europe.[color=#a0522d] A grand synthesis article argues that young Yamnaya warriors belonging to raiding parties married local Stone Age women, settling and adopting a more agrarian lifestyle[/color].
-------------------------------------------------------
呵呵,一开始就犯了低级的逻辑错误。按照此公的逻辑,既然此时北欧社会已经是‘胡夫农妻’社会,但同时又是农业社会,那到底是谁在干农活呢? 难道是这些被抢来的妻子们吗? 呵呵




During this process, where the Corded Ware Culture was formed, a new Proto-Germanic dialect appeared. In an earlier study Professor Kristian Kristiansen from the University of Gothenburg in Sweden and Lundbeck Foundation Professor Eske Willerslev from the Centre for GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen, and their research teams, showed that [color=#a0522d]the large demographic changes during the first part of the Bronze Age happened as a result of massive migrations of Yamnaya people from the Pontic-Caspian steppes into Neolithic Europe[/color]. They were also able to show that plague was widespread in both Europe and Central Asia at this time.
----------------------------------------------------


大规模的来自颜那亚草原的‘人口替换’? 呵呵,又来了,北欧的教授与博士的含金量可不可以更高一点呢? 呵呵
至于彼时是不是有灾荒发生? 或许有,但是so what? 这种灾荒难道不是在人类历史上频频发生吗?



Now Professor Kristiansen and Professor Willerslev with co-authors reveal a more detailed view of the mechanism behind the emerging culture known as the Corded Ware Culture -- the result of the encounter between the Yamnaya and the Neolithic people. Professor Kristian Kristiansen says: "①[color=#a0522d]We are now for the first time able to combine results from genetics, strontium isotopes on mobility and diet, and historical linguistics on language change, to demonstrate how the integration process unfolded on the ground after the Yamnaya migrations from the steppe[/color]. ②[color=#a0522d]In our grand synthesis we argue that Yamnaya migrants were predominantly males, who married women who came from neighbouring Stone Age farming societies[/color]" These Stone Age Neolithic societies were based on large farming communities reflected in their collective burial ritual often in big stone chambers, so called megaliths. Very different from the traditions of the incoming migrants.
-----------------------------------------
①基因结果已经证明此公团队的谬误,至于锶同位素报告,我没看过,不过我想也不能说明什么,难道我们现代中国人饮食中出现了来自美洲的番茄玉米,就能证明我们中国人的基因出现了大规模的替换,那倒真的央视的小崔说中了,呵呵。 还有语言方面的变化,这个不足为奇,现在小亚细亚的语言已经变化了好几茬了,难道基因有大规模的变化? 呵呵
② 更是荒谬,简直不值一驳。明眼人自己看吧



[b]The origin of the Yamnaya[/b]
The Yamnaya people originated on the Caspian steppes where they lived as pastoralists and herders, using wagons as mobile homes. From burial pits archaeologists have found extensive use of thick plant mats and felt covers. Their economy was based on meat, dairy products and fish, they were tall and rather healthy with little caries in their teeth.① [color=#a0522d]No agriculture is documented[/color]. Barrows were aligned in groups forming lines in the landscape to mark seasonal routes and after death diseased people were put into individual graves under small family barrows. Their burial ritual thus embodied a new perception of the individual and of small monogamous family groups as the foundation of society. ②[color=#a0522d]The continent encountered by the Yamnaya people around 3000 BC had seen a decline in the agrarian Stone Age societies, thereby allowing space for incoming migrants. This decline was probably the result of a widespread plague from Siberia to the Baltic[/color].
-------------------------------------------------
① 颜那亚与萨马拉地区也是有农业成分的,不过农业成分极低。
② 这个上面已经质疑了,而且作者团队自己也不是很肯定,只是猜测。只能当作莫须有而已。



"The disease dynamic here may have been comparable to the European colonization process in America after Christopher Columbus," says Kristiansen. "Perhaps Yamnaya brought plague to Europe and caused a massive collapse in the population."
------------------------------------------------
作者团队真的了解后哥伦布时代的美洲土著历史? 呵呵





[b]"Black Youth" as migrating males and their marriage to Neolithic women[/b]
In the new synthesis article, Kristiansen and colleagues argue for a dominance of males during the early phase after the migrations, and correspond to the old Indo-European mythology of later times.①[color=#a0522d] These sources talk about war-bands of youths -- called "Black Youth" -- who were employed in pioneer migrations as a dynamic force[/color]. Evidence from strontium isotopic analyses, published in 2016 by Kristiansen together with Douglas Price and Karl Goran Sjogren, showed that② [color=#a0522d]a majority of the women in Corded Ware burials in south Germany were non-locals who had married in from Neolithic societies, since they had a Neolithic diet in their childhood. These results now form part of the new synthesis. Professor Kristian Kristiansen says: "Existing archaeological evidence of a strong 90% male dominance in the early phase of the Corded Ware/Single Grave Culture settlement in Jutland, Denmark, and elsewhere can now be explained by the old Indo-European tradition of war bands of young males who did not have any inheritance to look forward to. Therefore they were probably more willing to make a career as migrating war bands[/color]."
----------------------------------------------
① 这个上面已经质疑了,所谓的‘"Black Youth"不过是捕风捉影的臆测罢了
② 愣没搞明白这些北欧学者是如何把这二者联系到一起的,只能说,北欧人的思维咱们搞不懂,呵呵



These Neolithic women also brought new knowledge of pottery production, and started to imitate pottery containers made of wood from the Yamnaya migrants. In this way a new pottery culture was created called Corded Ware, because of the cord impressions around the neck of the pots. They were made for beer drinking, and the new migrants also learned how to grow barley from the in-married Neolithic women in order to produce beer.
------------------------
原来Corded Ware就是用来喝啤酒的,呵呵,这倒是一个新鲜的解释。更可笑的是,正因为这些土著女人懂得种小麦懂得酿啤酒,于是新来的’皇军‘就把当地男人杀掉之余,留下了当地的女人,白天帮他们干活,晚上帮他们生孩子,呵呵,多么美好的强盗理想社会吖,哈哈



[b]Rapid genetic changeover from Neolithic to Corded Ware cultures after 3000 BC[/b]
Eske Willerslev undertook the ancient DNA analyses together with Morten Allentoft and Martin Sikora. Professor Willerslev says:
"In our big Bronze Age study, published in 2015 we were astonished to see how strong and fast the genetic changeover was from the Neolithic to the Corded Ware. There was a heavy reduction of Neolithic DNA in temperate Europe, and a dramatic increase of the new Yamnaya genomic component that was only marginally present in Europe prior to 3000 BC. Moreover, the apparent abruptness with which this change occurred indicates that it was a large-scale migration event, rather than a slow periodic inflow of people."
------------------------------------
当年Haak与allenloft的那两篇文章的确‘害人不浅’,尤其是allenloft的那一篇。可惜很多人都没有认真留意当时Haak在文中的警示。另外最搞笑的是,allenloft自己已经检测了颜那亚的R1b-M269的下游,却依然浑浑噩噩没看出其与Corded Ware人群主流M269的差别,只能说,有一些学者的大脑结构的确与众不同,呵呵



[b]New words and new Proto-Germanic dialect[/b]
The Yamnaya brought the Indo-European languages into Bronze Age Europe, but as herders, they did not have words for crops or cultivation, unlike the Neolithic farmers. As the Corded Ware Culture developed it adopted words related to farming from the indigenous Neolithic people, which they were admixing with. Guus Kroonen, a historical linguist, was able to demonstrate that these new words did not belong to the original Indo-European languages. Therefore it was possible to conclude that the Neolithic people were not speaking an Indo-European language, as did the Yamnaya migrants. Thus, the process of genetic and cultural admixture was accompanied by a process of language admixture, creating the foundations for later Germanic languages, termed Proto-Germanic.
------------------------------------
原始日耳曼语的确是一种被印欧化的语言,不过目前来看,更多的是一种‘小亚突厥化模式’的结果,尽管也和小亚细亚一样,伴随一定的基因渗入(both父系and母系),嗯,我是说,一定的与有限的外来基因渗入~



[b]The birth of the Bronze Age[/b]
The Yamnaya migrations from the Pontic-Caspian steppe into temperate Europe changed the course of history: they brought not only a new language, but also new ideas about how society was organized around small monogamous families with individual ownership to animals and land. This new society became the foundation for the Bronze Age, and for the way European societies continued to develop to the present.

------------------------------
这一段基本正确。以文化传播为主的融合带来的历史变化,在人类历史上屡见不鲜,就是这样...

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-9 12:08

[i=s] 本帖最后由 lindberg 于 2017-4-9 12:24 编辑 [/i]

这位博士的这篇文章是一篇论文呢,还是一篇在论坛上的短篇呢?反正有些感觉不严谨。
不过有几个问题:
1. 昨天大概看了一下北欧的I1,感觉I1的现在主流的共祖时间都比较短,最长不过4000多年,而且是似乎在斯堪的纳维亚(这里不包括日德兰半岛,这篇文章的样本来自日德兰)起源的可能性比较大,感觉新石器时代I1是在德国和德国以北广泛分布的,那是否可以说明目前日耳曼语族诸国的I1是后来随着日耳曼扩张南下的呢?
2. 以前看过一个关于日耳曼人分化的说法,大概是说早期日耳曼人分为南北两支,菲英岛+以西的日德兰+德国哈茨山以北奥得河以西是南支,而北支在西兰岛+斯堪的纳维亚南部沿海,也是南支不断扩散的结果(保留土著成分较多),当然北支也会不断进入南支的地盘,双方交流不断,后来南支演化为西日耳曼三大支,北支演化为北欧人,至于东日耳曼则主要是北支渡海南下融合奥得河以东当地人的结果
3. 从现在情况看,北欧国家I1高,德国和西欧r1b高(北欧r1b主流U106应该是青铜晚期以后的事了),双方的r1a相对接近,有可能说明corded ware的这波扩张应该是是以r1a为主融合I1的结果,很奇怪当时的I1(也应该有其他类型的)男性哪去了?光因为鼠疫肯定说不通,鼠疫不能只杀男不杀女吧?所以有无可能这些孩提时吃素食的女性就是r1a带过来的(还有个疑问,以前看过一个文章说植物食品糖分更高,更容易产生龋齿,不懂医学,感觉不长龋齿也不能说明这些北欧姑娘是素食者吧)

baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-9 21:39

[i=s] 本帖最后由 baiyueren 于 2017-4-9 22:08 编辑 [/i]

只说我的理解:
日耳曼的遗传结构看起来也不是单纯的,而是青铜猎人征服同化新石器农民的结果。
1.新石器农民:还是坚持我之前的观点,I1不代表日耳曼原初父系,而是迁徙到后来被称为日耳曼尼亚区域的新石器农民,属于地中海人种(多瑙河类型?),色素较深 。对应的文化就是Corded Ware/线纹陶文化或多瑙河文化,根据考古发掘结果,此文化的居民以深色素为主,只有少量浅色素个体。
2.R1b:不确定是不是印欧人入侵者的一部分,语言文化类型暂时也存疑,但是先于R1b印欧人进入西北欧是没问题的。
3. R1a:对应黑海北岸南俄起源的颜那亚人,印欧语言文化。浅色素较多,头骨特征接近现代北欧人,但一些地方类型有接近高加索人种类型的特征(如鹰钩大鼻)。

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-9 21:54

[i=s] 本帖最后由 lindberg 于 2017-4-9 22:03 编辑 [/i]

[quote]只说我的理解:
日耳曼的遗传结构看起来也不是单纯的,而是青铜猎人征服同化新石器农民的结果。
1.新石器农民:还是坚持我之前的观点,I1不代表日耳曼原初父系,而是迁徙到后来被称为日耳曼尼亚区域的新石器农民, ...
[size=2][color=#999999]baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-9 21:39[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500868&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.org/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]这个“black youth”和“migrating war bands”把我看糊涂了。是深色素的意思吗?migrating war bands怎么讲?

baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-9 21:56

[i=s] 本帖最后由 baiyueren 于 2017-4-9 22:12 编辑 [/i]

另外,看国外网友的讨论,好像特里波耶-库库泰尼文化人骨测出来Y-I2a2。该文化主体位于西乌克兰,人种属于地中海人种的分支类型,苏联人类学家称之为“本都型或喀尔巴阡山型”。
[url=http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thr ... ni-Tripolye-Culture]http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thr ... ni-Tripolye-Culture[/url]

这可以作为日耳曼地区的Y-I1属于地中海人种的旁证。

baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-9 22:11

[quote]这个“black youth”和“migrating war bands”把我看糊涂了。是深色素的意思吗?migrating war bands怎么讲?
[size=2][color=#999999]lindberg 发表于 2017-4-9 21:54[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500871&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
我仔细看了一下原文。“black youth”和“migrating war bands”指的是来自印欧族群以战争为业的青年男性。不是指肤色发色的深色素。我之前贴子里的理解是错的,已更正。

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-9 22:17

针对百越版主的几点理解,我必须要解释一下:
1, 目前对应欧洲土著成分的WHG以及克罗马农最好的就是y-I相关人群。
2, R1a与R1的内部支系的差别还是很大的

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-9 22:20

另外,本文的black与肤色无关,只是指西侵的印欧人群的少先队的行为有一点类似星球大战的黑武士

baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-9 22:26

[i=s] 本帖最后由 baiyueren 于 2017-4-9 22:35 编辑 [/i]

[quote]针对百越版主的几点理解,我必须要解释一下:
1, 目前对应欧洲土著成分的WHG以及克罗马农最好的就是y-I相关人群。
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-9 22:17[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500875&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
只能说不排除早期克罗马农人属于Y-I*的可能性,但是在对克人古YDNA实测结果出来前是无法认定的。其次,我不认为I1分支属于克罗马农人。

还有,对于你所说的“欧洲土著成分”,从现有论文看,应该不只是最早期克罗马农人的成分。之后来自近东黎凡特地区的深色素地中海成分也被归入这种“欧洲土著成分”中,比如冰人奥茨就有大量这种近东常染成分。只有最晚期来自西亚新石器农民的成分被排除在“欧洲土著成分”之外。

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-9 22:49

[quote]
只能说不排除早期克罗马农人属于Y-I*的可能性,但是在对克人古YDNA实测结果出来前是无法认定的。其次,我不认为I1分支属于克罗马农人。

还有,对于你所说的“欧洲土著成分”,从现有论文看,应该不只是最早期克 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-9 22:26[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500877&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.org/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
早期欧洲克人的y已经实测了,就是y-I,当然,目前不能排除还有其他SNP。

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-9 22:57

早期欧洲的y类型也是很纷杂的,y-I是主流,同时还有y-C、y-T、y-R、记得还有y-E(不确定)。更早还有罗马尼的K2a,不过旧石器时代的常染成分很不均匀,既有高比例的WHG人群,也有混有高比例的尼人的混血种,甚至还有很少一部分带有EE的古人群~

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-10 11:35

绳文器文化范围很大,但最有代表性的还是哈茨山以北奥德河以西的古日耳曼地区,南边和东边的部分早就被洗刷多次了。
日德兰在日耳曼人形成和迁徙中是一个关键节点。

baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-10 11:54

[i=s] 本帖最后由 baiyueren 于 2017-4-10 11:56 编辑 [/i]

还有再补充一点,在国外的历史书里一般把东欧比如捷克出现的Corded Ware/线纹陶文化视为与凯尔特人起源有密切关联的一种考古文化,时代上早于中欧和西欧的哈尔施塔特文化。一般认为哈尔施塔特文化居民已经是(混血形成的)凯尔特人了。
以下是德国某博物馆里展出的德国境内凯尔特人的骨骸和复原像。

[attach]50886[/attach]

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-10 12:05

百越版主上面提供的这幅图中的古人,其下巴颇具凯尔特特色

baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-10 13:05

[i=s] 本帖最后由 baiyueren 于 2017-4-10 13:24 编辑 [/i]

再贴几张地中海人种分支类型的图。

多瑙河类型:线纹陶文化遗址常见类型,特点是头面部比较圆滑,凹鼻背,圆鼻头。个人猜测可能参与了西北欧-日德兰地区博雷比/Borrey人种(头面部圆滑),以及东欧地区占主流的新多瑙河类型(常见凹鼻背)的形成。此外哈尔施塔特(凯尔特)类型也有头面部比较圆滑的特征,只是与前两者相比面部更窄、鼻子更长。

[attach]50887[/attach]
[attach]50889[/attach]

喀尔巴阡山类型(Carpathid):特里波耶-库库泰尼文化的人骨类型,在今摩尔多瓦和罗马尼亚都比较常见。

[attach]50888[/attach]

Lep1dus 发表于 2017-4-10 20:42

[quote]还有再补充一点,在国外的历史书里一般把东欧比如捷克出现的Corded Ware/线纹陶文化视为与凯尔特人起源有密切关联的一种考古文化,时代上早于中欧和西欧的哈尔施塔特文化。一般认为哈尔施塔特文化居民已经是(混血形 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-10 11:54[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500936&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.org/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
但关键是Corded Ware有U106没有P310啊,怀疑还是和日耳曼相关

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-11 17:57

[quote]早期欧洲的y类型也是很纷杂的,y-I是主流,同时还有y-C、y-T、y-R、记得还有y-E(不确定)。更早还有罗马尼的K2a,不过旧石器时代的常染成分很不均匀,既有高比例的WHG人群,也有混有高比例的尼人的混血种,甚至还有 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-9 22:57[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500882&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.com/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]


如果各位对欧洲血缘历史感兴趣,强烈推荐认真细致地读一下付大美同志团队的欧洲ice age那篇里程碑式的力作,目前来看,还没有其他学者能出乎其右~

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-12 22:33

偶然发现一篇关于丹麦博士的介绍,很多如雷贯耳的遗骸都和他有关,有没有夸张?
[url]http://mt.sohu.com/20160521/n450714516.shtml[/url]

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-13 19:01

willerslev博士对古人类学的热忱与付出是值得赞赏的,不过他的思辨能力似乎存在一些明显的短板,起码‘胡夫农妻’这种奇葩的想法就难以令人对这位人类学博士的含金量产生足够的信心~

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-13 19:06

还有就是你上面转发的这篇前几年的报道,既然马尔它男孩与美洲土著存在明显的血缘继承性,那为什么会贸然得出结论说‘MA1与现代东亚人不存在任何血缘关系’,这种思辨能力真的实在让人不敢恭维~

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-13 22:02

[i=s] 本帖最后由 lindberg 于 2017-4-13 22:04 编辑 [/i]

西方国家的人(尤其男性)可能是因为孩提时的生活较幸福,在研究问题时有时听上去很幼稚(从童年就善于想象),感觉不如中国人(大多数)谨慎和实际,但很难说这是缺点还是优点...      
      感觉他们并不在乎说错(学术氛围宽松),也不是很在乎凭借一个理论一举成名,奠定一生的基础,对他们来说,这件事是值得一生去探索的事情,也许随着年龄的提高,他们会越来越深刻...,     

      我不是很了解马耳他村的男孩,听说好像是R2*,看了一下:
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体]
[/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体]      之后,他和同事们开发出了更有效的 DNA 分析方法,于是,莱格哈文博士和她的同事重新开始研究于 Mal'ta 村庄发现的骨骼遗骸的 DNA。而研究结果表现,这块骨骼并没被污染。相反,它拥有一个超乎他们预期的基因组。[/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体]  男孩的部分基因组近似于古代欧洲人的 DNA,但总体上更接近美洲原住民的 DNA。[/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体][color=#333333]  Willerslev 博士称:“这真是令人大开眼界的发现, [/color][b][color=#ff0000]这具被发现的骨骼遗骸竟然与东亚族群毫无关联[/color][/b][color=#333333],但却与欧洲人和美洲原住民相关。”[/color][/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体][color=#333333]  [/color][color=#000000]看来,这具 Mal'ta 男孩的遗骸属于一个 2.4 万年前分布于亚洲各地的古代族群。[/color][b][color=#ff0000]在某段时间,他们与东亚族群相互接触,两个族群成员结合孕育出下一代。[/color][/b][color=#333333]而美国原住民正是那些孩子的后代。[/color][/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体][color=#333333]
[/color][/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体][color=#333333]
[/color][/font][font=微软雅黑, 宋体]这两句话相互矛盾,是不是翻译的问题呢?得找原文看看。[/font]

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-13 22:05

[quote]willerslev博士对古人类学的热忱与付出是值得赞赏的,不过他的思辨能力似乎存在一些明显的短板,起码‘胡夫农妻’这种奇葩的想法就难以令人对这位人类学博士的含金量产生足够的信心~
[size=2][color=#999999]imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-13 19:01[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=501333&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.org/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
其实,我怀疑是胡夫胡妻,他这几段文字太短,没有论文数据,不知道怎么得出这个结论的,光靠有无龋齿?我的疑问前面都说了。

baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-13 22:07

[b] [url=http://www.ranhaer.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=501345&ptid=35016]27#[/url] [i]lindberg[/i] [/b]
马耳他男孩所属的族群和来自东亚的族群毫无关联。
马耳他男孩所属族群和来自东亚的族群混血产生出美洲人群。

以上这两句话有什么矛盾吗?

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-13 22:18

[i=s] 本帖最后由 lindberg 于 2017-4-13 23:13 编辑 [/i]

[b] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=501347&ptid=35016]29#[/url] [i]baiyueren[/i] [/b]
不矛盾也是翻译的不够清楚吧,文章的意思是不是说“美洲人群是ANE与EA混血产生的”呢?{:8_214:}

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-13 22:57

[quote]再贴几张地中海人种分支类型的图。

多瑙河类型:线纹陶文化遗址常见类型,特点是头面部比较圆滑,凹鼻背,圆鼻头。个人猜测可能参与了西北欧-日德兰地区博雷比/Borrey人种(头面部圆滑),以及东欧地区占主流的新 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-10 13:05[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500942&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.org/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
这几张能算地中海类型吗?我怎么感觉像阿尔卑斯类型的,起码是阿尔卑斯混血。

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-13 23:38

[quote]西方国家的人(尤其男性)可能是因为孩提时的生活较幸福,在研究问题时有时听上去很幼稚(从童年就善于想象),感觉不如中国人(大多数)谨慎和实际,但很难说这是缺点还是优点...      
      感觉他们并不在乎说错(学术氛围宽松),也不是很在乎凭借一个理论一举成名,奠定一生的基础,对他们来说,这件事是值得一生去探索的事情,也许随着年龄的提高,他们会越来越深刻...,     

      我不是很了解马耳他村的男孩,听说好像是R2*,看了一下:
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体]
[/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体]      之后,他和同事们开发出了更有效的 DNA 分析方法,于是,莱格哈文博士和她的同事重新开始研究于 Mal'ta 村庄发现的骨骼遗骸的 DNA。而研究结果表现,这块骨骼并没被污染。相反,它拥有一个超乎他们预期的基因组。[/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体]  男孩的部分基因组近似于古代欧洲人的 DNA,但总体上更接近美洲原住民的 DNA。[/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体][color=#333333]  Willerslev 博士称:“这真是令人大开眼界的发现, [/color][b][color=#ff0000]这具被发现的骨骼遗骸竟然与东亚族群毫无关联[/color][/b][color=#333333],但却与欧洲人和美洲原住民相关。”[/color][/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体][color=#333333]  [/color][color=#000000]看来,这具 Mal'ta 男孩的遗骸属于一个 2.4 万年前分布于亚洲各地的古代族群。[/color][b][color=#ff0000]在某段时间,他们与东亚族群相互接触,两个族群成员结合孕育出下一代。[/color][/b][color=#333333]而美国原住民正是那些孩子的后代。[/color][/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体][color=#333333]
[/color][/font]
[font=微软雅黑, 宋体][color=#333333]
[/color][/font][font=微软雅黑, 宋体]这两句话相互矛盾,是不是翻译的问题呢?得找原文看看。[/font]
[size=2][color=#999999]lindberg 发表于 2017-4-13 22:02[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=501345&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.org/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
1、MA1男孩的y是R*,可视为R1与R2支系先祖的兄弟支系,不过目前应该没有直系y后裔;
2、willerslew多次在不同的场合声称MA1男孩与东亚人毫无关系(或几乎完全没有关系),嘴大脑小十分可笑~

imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-13 23:40

另外欧洲人并不都是这类嘴大脑小的‘宝货’,其实法国德国美国英国的学者总的来说还是比较谨慎的(那两位都柏林三一之光可能除外),总之不能一概而论~

lindberg 发表于 2017-4-13 23:50

[quote]还有再补充一点,在国外的历史书里一般把东欧比如捷克出现的Corded Ware/线纹陶文化视为与凯尔特人起源有密切关联的一种考古文化,时代上早于中欧和西欧的哈尔施塔特文化。一般认为哈尔施塔特文化居民已经是(混血形 ...
[size=2][color=#999999]baiyueren 发表于 2017-4-10 11:54[/color] [url=http://www.ranhaer.org/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=500936&ptid=35016][img]http://www.ranhaer.org/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url][/size][/quote]
以前看过一张名画,讲的是意大利的山南高卢部落首领布伦,他得意洋洋地看着几个裸体的罗马人女俘虏(分配给他的),这位布伦和上面这位仁兄有些像,不过更凶狠和桀骜一些。

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