Google

蓝海人类学在线 Ryan WEI's Forum of Anthropology

 找回密码
 注册
楼主: cytrug9

基因研究还能解决三次黑死病源流的问题?

[复制链接]
发表于 2017-9-3 09:03 | 显示全部楼层
中医对疫情的控制要有证据,如果能证实将是很提气的。
抗体是不能遗传的,是后天形成的。
有可能的是不断的小疫情会导致抗病基因的广泛传播,导致大疫情受到控制。
一统浆糊 发表于 2017-9-1 23:35
防疫的关键是公共卫生,欧洲大城市到18世纪还把粪便扔到大街上,自然容易出流行病.
发表于 2017-9-3 12:52 | 显示全部楼层
刚查到著名的北欧分子人类学大嘴博士与另一个著名的乌龙大王教授一帮人
(团队阵容还是蛮豪华的,呵呵)在2015年的研究成果,粗看了内容还是很吸引人的,转发如下:

Early Divergent Strains of Yersinia pestis in Eurasia 5,000 Years Ago: Cell  http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(15)01322-7?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867415013227%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
作者团队:
Simon Rasmussen18, Morten Erik Allentoft18, Kasper Nielsen, Ludovic Orlando, Martin Sikora, Karl-Göran Sjögren, Anders Gorm Pedersen, Mikkel Schubert, Alex Van Dam, Christian Moliin Outzen Kapel, Henrik Bjørn Nielsen, Søren Brunak, Pavel Avetisyan, Andrey Epimakhov, Mikhail Viktorovich Khalyapin, Artak Gnuni, Aivar Kriiska, Irena Lasak, Mait Metspalu, Vyacheslav Moiseyev, Andrei Gromov, Dalia Pokutta, Lehti Saag, Liivi Varul, Levon Yepiskoposyan, Thomas Sicheritz-Pontén, Robert A. Foley, Marta Mirazón Lahr, Rasmus Nielsen, Kristian Kristiansen, Eske Willerslev'Correspondence information about the author Eske WillerslevEmail the author Eske Willerslev
18Co-first author
Open Access
PlumX Metrics
DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2015.10.009 |
Open access funded by European Research Council


Highlights
  • [size=1.45em]•
    Yersinia pestis was common across Eurasia in the Bronze Age
  • [size=1.45em]•
    The most recent common ancestor of all Y. pestis was 5,783 years ago
  • [size=1.45em]•
    The ymt gene was acquired before 951 cal BC, giving rise to transmission via fleas
  • [size=1.45em]•
    Bronze Age Y. pestis was not capable of causing bubonic plague


SummaryThe bacteria Yersinia pestis is the etiological agent of plague and has caused human pandemics with millions of deaths in historic times. How and when it originated remains contentious. Here, we report the oldest direct evidence of Yersinia pestis identified by ancient DNA in human teeth from Asia and Europe dating from 2,800 to 5,000 years ago. By sequencing the genomes, we find that these ancient plague strains are basal to all known Yersinia pestis. We find the origins of the Yersinia pestis lineage to be at least two times older than previous estimates. We also identify a temporal sequence of genetic changes that lead to increased virulence and the emergence of the bubonic plague. Our results show that plague infection was endemic in the human populations of Eurasia at least 3,000 years before any historical recordings of pandemics.
发表于 2017-9-3 12:56 | 显示全部楼层
Introduction


Plague is caused by the bacteria Yersinia pestis and is being directly transmitted through human-to-human contact (pneumonic plague) or via fleas as a common vector (bubonic or septicemic plague) (Treille and Yersin, 1894). Three historic human plague pandemics have been documented: (1) the First Pandemic, which started with the Plague of Justinian (541–544 AD), but continued intermittently until ~750 AD; (2) the Second Pandemic, which began with the Black Death in Europe (1347–1351 AD) and included successive waves, such as the Great Plague (1665–1666 AD), until the 18th century; (3) the Third Pandemic, which emerged in China in the 1850s and erupted there in a major epidemic in 1894 before spreading across the world as a series of epidemics until the middle of the 20th century (Bos et al., 2011, Cui et al., 2013, Drancourt et al., 1998, Harbeck et al., 2013, Parkhill et al., 2001, Perry and Fetherston, 1997, Wagner et al., 2014). Earlier outbreaks such as the Plague of Athens (430–427 BC) and the Antonine Plague (165–180 AD) may also have occurred, but there is no direct evidence that allows confident attribution to Y. pestis (Drancourt and Raoult, 2002, McNeill, 1976).

The consequences of the plague pandemics have been well-documented and the demographic impacts were dramatic (Little et al., 2007). The Black Death alone is estimated to have killed 30%–50% of the European population. Economic and political collapses have also been in part attributed to the devastating effects of the plague. The Plague of Justinian is thought to have played a major role in weakening the Byzantine Empire, and the earlier putative plagues have been associated with the decline of Classical Greece and likely undermined the strength of the Roman army.

Molecular clock estimates have suggested that Y. pestis diversified from the more prevalent and environmental stress-tolerant, but less pathogenic, enteric bacterium Y. pseudotuberculosis between 2,600 and 28,000 years ago (Achtman et al., 1999, Achtman et al., 2004, Cui et al., 2013, Wagner et al., 2014). However, humans may potentially have been exposed to Y. pestis for much longer than the historical record suggests, though direct molecular evidence for Y. pestis has not been obtained from skeletal material older than 1,500 years (Bos et al., 2011, Wagner et al., 2014). The most basal strains of Y. pestis (0.PE7 clade) recorded to date were isolated from the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau in China in 1961–1962 (Cui et al., 2013).

We investigated the origin of Y. pestis by sequencing ancient bacterial genomes from the teeth of Bronze Age humans across Europe and Asia. Our findings suggest that the virulent, flea-borne Y. pestis strain that caused the historic bubonic plague pandemics evolved from a less pathogenic Y. pestis lineage infecting human populations long before recorded evidence of plague outbreaks.
发表于 2017-9-3 13:24 | 显示全部楼层
建安二十二年瘟疫倒是规模蛮大的.多位著名人物病死于那一年.
谜雾 发表于 2017-9-3 08:59

匈奴发动最早的人类生化战争——中新网
http://www.chinanews.com/cul/2011/04-25/2995296.shtml

估计建安22的大瘟疫是这次生化战争的后遗延续,模式是每隔若干年就爆发一次,黄巾军大起义或许也与之有关~
发表于 2017-9-3 13:36 | 显示全部楼层
东汉末期的名医张仲景在《伤寒论》的序中就悲痛地说:“我的家族人多,有二百余口人,但自建安元年以来不到十年,就死去了三分之二,其中十分之七是死于伤寒。 ”请特别留意,当时人称之为“伤寒”有两个病征:一是患者身体有斑瘀(所以称为“伤”);一是因发高烧而苦寒(所以称为“寒”),死亡率非常高。 这个“伤”病症正好与医学上界定的“腺鼠疫”高度一致,可能是早期“西伯利亚鼠疫杆菌”出现新变异之始。






按照我上面转发的“中新网”的这篇文章,伤寒病的蔓延可能是““魏晋风流”的一个主要原因。
原文:魏晋时期许多文人名士轻裘缓带着宽衣,放荡形骸穿木屐,总会认为这是逍遥高逸的表现,却不知这是吃药的缘故。
史载魏晋时期人们为了医治和预防伤寒病,常会服用一种叫做五石散的汤药。五石散作为药酒具有发汗的功效,因此即使在冬日,服药的人也会皮肉发烧,穿得少自不用说,而且若是穿着紧身的窄衣服还会把皮肤擦伤,于是非穿宽大衣衫不可。
发表于 2017-9-3 14:00 | 显示全部楼层
匈奴发动最早的人类生化战争——中新网
http://www.chinanews.com/cul/2011/04-25/2995296.shtml

估计建安22的大瘟疫是这次生化战争的后遗延续,模式是每隔若干年就爆发一次,黄巾军大起义或许也与之有关~
imvivi001 发表于 2017-9-3 13:24

人类历史上最早先发动生化战争的是匈奴人? 还是犹太人呢?

出埃及记(Exodus) -- 第 12 章

12:1
耶和华在埃及地晓谕摩西、亚伦说:
The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt,

12:2
“你们要以本月为正月,为一年之首。
"This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year.

12:3
你们吩咐以色列全会众说,本月初十日,各人要按着父家取羊羔,一家一只。
Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household.

12:6
要留到本月十四日,在黄昏的时候,以色列全会众把羊羔宰了。
Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight.

12:7
各家要取点血,涂在吃羊羔的房屋左右的门框上和门楣上。(生化战争前的准备工作,以免误伤?)
Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs.

12:8
当夜要吃羊羔的肉,用火烤了,与无酵饼和苦菜同吃。(可能“无酵饼和苦菜”具有某种预防功效?,羔羊患病的可能性比较小吗?)
That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast.

12:9
不可吃生的,断不可吃水煮的,要带着头、腿、五脏,用火烤了吃。(看来病毒已经开始了...)
Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire--head, legs and inner parts.

12:10
不可剩下一点留到早晨,若留到早晨,要用火烧了。(防疫工作做的还是蛮好的,呵呵)
Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it.

12:12
因为那夜我要巡行埃及地,把埃及地一切头生的,无论是人是牲畜,都击杀了,又要败坏埃及一切的神。我是耶和华。
"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.(为何是头生的人畜? 难道‘头生’的还没有产生抗体?

12:15
你们要吃无酵饼七日。头一日要把酵从你们各家中除去,因为从头一日起,到第七日为止,凡吃有酵之饼的,必从以色列中剪除。
For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel.(无酵饼有防疫功效么? 可能吧...

12:16
头一日你们当有圣会,第七日也当有圣会,这两日之内,除了预备各人所要吃的以外,无论何工都不可作。(明显的瘟疫防疫措施...)
On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat--that is all you may do.

12:17
你们要守无酵节,因为我正当这日把你们的军队从埃及地领出来;所以你们要守这日,作为世世代代永远的定例。
"Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.

12:18
从正月十四日晚上,直到二十一日晚上,你们要吃无酵饼。
In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day.

12:19
在你们各家中,七日之内不可有酵,因为凡吃有酵之物的,无论是寄居的,是本地的,必从以色列的会中剪除。
For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born.

12:20
有酵的物,你们都不可吃,在你们一切住处要吃无酵饼。”
Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread."

              ---------------------  以上反复说到“吃无酵饼”,可能真的有功效...

12:21
于是,摩西召了以色列的众长老来,对他们说:“你们要按着家口取出羊羔,把这逾越节的羊羔宰了。
Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb.

12:22
拿一把牛膝草,蘸盆里的血,打在门楣上和左右的门框上。你们谁也不可出自己的房门,直到早晨。
Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning.

12:23
因为耶和华要巡行击杀埃及人,他看见血在门楣上和左右的门框上,就必越过那门,不容灭命的进你们的房屋,击杀你们。
When the LORD goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.

12:24
这例你们要守着,作为你们和你们子孙永远的定例。
"Obey these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants.

12:25
日后,你们到了耶和华按着所应许赐给你们的那地,就要守这礼。
When you enter the land that the LORD will give you as he promised, observe this ceremony.

12:26
你们的儿女问你们说:‘行这礼是什么意思?’
And when your children ask you, 'What does this ceremony mean to you?'

12:27
你们就说:‘这是献给耶和华逾越节的祭。当以色列人在埃及的时候,他击杀埃及人,越过以色列人的房屋,救了我们各家。’”于是,百姓低头下拜。
then tell them, 'It is the Passover sacrifice to the LORD, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.'" Then the people bowed down and worshiped.

12:28
耶和华怎样吩咐摩西、亚伦,以色列人就怎样行。
The Israelites did just what the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron.

12:29
到了半夜,耶和华把埃及地所有的长子,就是从坐宝座的法老,直到被掳囚在监里之人的长子,以及一切头生的牲畜,尽都杀了。
At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

12:30
法老和一切臣仆,并埃及众人,夜间都起来了。在埃及有大哀号,无一家不死一个人的。
Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

12:31
夜间法老召了摩西、亚伦来,说:“起来!连你们带以色列人,从我民中出去,依你们所说的,去侍奉耶和华吧!

12:32
也依你们所说的,连羊群牛群带着走吧!并要为我祝福。”
Take your flocks and herds, as you have said, and go. And also bless me."
  ----------------------------------------------------

12:33
埃及人催促百姓,打发他们快快出离那地,因为埃及人说:“我们都要死了。”
The Egyptians urged the people to hurry and leave the country. "For otherwise," they said, "we will all die!"

     -------------------- 这一段话蛮有意思的,似乎埃及人认为这帮“希伯来蛮夷”是瘟疫之源,不知道摩西五经的原文是如何描述的...

12:34
百姓就拿着没有酵的生面,把抟面盆包在衣服中,扛在肩头上。
So the people took their dough before the yeast was added, and carried it on their shoulders in kneading troughs wrapped in clothing.

12:35
以色列人照着摩西的话行,向埃及人要金器银器和衣裳。

12:36
耶和华叫百姓在埃及人眼前蒙恩,以致埃及人给他们所要的,他们就把埃及人的财物夺去了。
The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.

   ----------------------- 趁机大发死人财吖,呵呵



12:40
以色列人住在埃及共有四百三十年。
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years.
 楼主| 发表于 2017-9-3 14:22 | 显示全部楼层
44# imvivi001 您好,何新写的啊。。首先,匈奴与匈人的关系有待考察,其次罗马帝国的瘟疫是匈人引起的?6世纪瘟疫是罗马帝国瘟疫的延续?何新原文还说从那时到黑死病《十日谈》的年代都是这个生物武器的反复发作,这倒好,一个现代概念往古代一套可以解决所有疾病源流了其实,即便在中国历史上,生物武器的说法也过于玄幻了吧,转载一篇文章http://www.doc88.com/p-5127491725378.html
发表于 2017-9-3 18:47 | 显示全部楼层
47# cytrug9
没看何新的原文。不过从你的部分引述来看,何新的观点也是有一定道理的,比如:无论东罗马帝国大瘟疫(史称‘查斯丁尼大瘟疫“)是不是直接与西进的匈人有关以及欧洲匈人是不是是西方的匈奴人,我认为这个都不重要。因为大瘟疫的爆发年代恰好是西伯利亚游牧民族大规模西进的一段历史时期,这个阶段,不单有匈奴人西进,刚刚崛起的蓝突厥人更是大规模西进,正好与查斯丁尼大瘟疫的爆发年代很接近。那么,到底是谁带去了这种可怕的病毒? 我看有可能主要是后者。
     目前已经有足够的证据证明查斯丁尼大瘟疫的致命病毒就是耶氏鼠疫杆菌的一种,而且已经带有腺鼠疫杆菌变异,也即开始具备与东汉时期中国的’伤寒病’一样的病症。这个也算是‘匈奴生化战争’的一个间接证据吧。

     你转引的这篇针对何新的批驳文章,我觉得说服力不强。作者首先是大篇幅强调霍去病不是死于匈奴的生化战。其实霍去病是不是死于这个生化战我认为根本不重要,重要的是当时匈奴是不是发起了疑似的‘生化战’,我看是的,尽管目前没有当年的‘物证’,或许将来我们可以找到我上面转发的“北欧大嘴博士”团队采用的那种方法所得到的直接物证~
 楼主| 发表于 2017-9-3 19:21 | 显示全部楼层
48# imvivi001 还没下载您后来补充的文,打不开。。 从您转引的部分来看,还是追溯到中国(青海)?
 楼主| 发表于 2017-9-3 19:30 | 显示全部楼层
48# imvivi001 罗马帝国的瘟疫没有证据是匈人带来的吧。。我记得帝国后期,瘟疫一直是个问题。比如2世纪的安东尼瘟疫。 6世纪的查士丁尼瘟疫,就算是鼠疫,也很难跟西伯利亚游牧民族西进扯上关系(马扎尔人来自乌拉尔地区,匈人应该偏向于中亚一点,阿瓦尔分为两支起源无定论),毕竟瘟疫爆发与传播是从北非到欧洲啊。。http://www.sohu.com/a/141902629_617755
 楼主| 发表于 2017-9-3 19:34 | 显示全部楼层
48# imvivi001 根据欧洲中古史学者的研究,埃及于541 年最早出现疫情,同年鼠疫就传播到罗马,第二年即542年春季首都君士坦丁堡爆发鼠,随之维罗纳、马赛等城市也感染瘟疫,543年意大利全境和叙利亚等地成为疫此后,鼠疫随军队传播到波斯。这次鼠疫先是在沿海城市和军营,后是沿海上航线、军事大道和商路四处流传,整个地中海沿都成为疫区,其中君士坦丁堡、安条克、罗马和马赛是重灾区,在百年内四度流行鼠疫,而西班牙东南部、高卢和北非地区三度爆发鼠疫,甚至英格兰西部和爱尔兰东部沿海地区也两度感染鼠疫,“简而言之,除了阿奎丹和西班牙的大西洋沿岸地区,罗马世界所有的古代城市都遭到了大瘟疫的荼毒人 口由此锐减”。爱德华·吉本到18世纪时在论及“查士丁尼瘟疫”造成的巨大人口损失时还哀叹,“在地球的某些最美好的地方至今也并未完全恢复”。不断爆发的鼠疫在缺乏抵御经验的地中海和欧洲毫无疑问造成了重大破坏,也留下了诸多历史问题,例如其对地中海农业经济和城市生活的破坏、其引发的欧洲人口下降和劳力短缺以及欧洲民族构成和经济发展的机构性变化,特别是“查士丁尼瘟疫”与14世纪爆发的“黑死病”之间的联系等,这些都是需要进一步深入研究的历史课题。
发表于 2017-9-3 21:54 | 显示全部楼层
48# imvivi001 还没下载您后来补充的文,打不开。。 从您转引的部分来看,还是追溯到中国(青海)?
cytrug9 发表于 2017-9-3 19:21

是的,是上世纪在一个青海人身上发现的。鉴于近代至现今通过对中国人大量的检测均未发现此毒菌类型,因此很有可能也是来自中亚西伯利亚或更早之前来自中亚西伯利亚的遗孤~
发表于 2017-9-3 22:01 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 imvivi001 于 2017-9-3 22:16 编辑
48# imvivi001 罗马帝国的瘟疫没有证据是匈人带来的吧。。我记得帝国后期,瘟疫一直是个问题。比如2世纪的安东尼瘟疫。 6世纪的查士丁尼瘟疫,就算是鼠疫,也很难跟西伯利亚游牧民族西进扯上关系(马扎尔人来自乌拉尔地区,匈人应该偏向于中亚一点,阿瓦尔分为两支起源无定论),毕竟瘟疫爆发与传播是从北非到欧洲啊。cytrug9 发表于 2017-9-3 19:30


罗马帝国的瘟疫是不是匈人带来的,目前还没有直接证据,有待观察。


6世纪的查士丁尼瘟疫就是鼠疫,而且还是因为新变异的腺鼠疫病毒引发的,有非常确凿的直接证据,这个我上面转发的大嘴博士的豪华团队的研究成果已经清楚无误的展示了。
至于查斯丁尼瘟疫是不是与西伯利亚游牧民族直接相关,目前从DNA全序检测分析来看,很有可能是(参见上面这个团队的研究成果) 欧洲-亚洲-致命鼠疫杆菌-关系图2.jpg
 楼主| 发表于 2017-9-3 22:26 | 显示全部楼层
53# imvivi001 谢谢啦,嘛。。不太懂生物学,学习ing。。对这个话题挺好奇的,就是说您贴的两篇论文的研究成果还是都把黑死病的最初的起源追溯到中亚?不过査士丁尼瘟疫无论如何,在现有的历史研究中也是从北非来的啊,自西向东传播,说它与西伯利亚游牧民相关。。。。相关的话,怎么会在埃塞俄比亚与埃及爆发再沿地中海向东传播呢。。
发表于 2017-9-3 22:36 | 显示全部楼层
当然,从另一个角度来看,也可以把全部‘罪责’推给欧洲人或犹太人,因为:1、最早的直接证据尽管来自贝加尔湖畔的阿凡羡那沃古人,但是现在所有的DNA分析都表明,贝加尔阿人是地地道道的‘古欧洲人’,基本上没有东亚血统。之后阿人的病毒传染给了西伯利亚其他族群以及当地的啮齿类动物,蒙古旱獭就是‘证据’,也是受害者之一,呵呵。
     尽管北亚地区人群最早受害,但是也意外‘得益’,那就是最早获取了相对其他地区更强的免疫抗体,尽管其中主要的抗体很有可能是隔代遗传的,也符合此瘟疫间歇性与间断性的爆发模式。


2、犹太人的古籍言之凿凿地说,是他们的上帝最早在古埃及开展了生化战争,疫情症状也很类似鼠疫,因此不妨碍咱们推测,是吃了生酵饼与苦菜之后具备了良好的抗体的犹太人把这种疑似‘鼠疫病毒’传到了古罗马,先是小规模的,后来愈演愈烈,引爆了2世纪的安东尼瘟疫(时间上勉强可以说得过去,呵呵),正好可以解释为啥查斯丁尼瘟疫首先从埃及爆发,以及大嘴团队在非洲人身上也发现了另一种较为古老的0.PE3类型的原因。

   俺以上阐释是不是比较具有说服性吖,呵呵
发表于 2017-9-3 23:12 | 显示全部楼层
考虑到“超级安哥拉”的特殊毒性与传染烈性,越看越像是一种人工培育的品种。与此对照的“中亚0.PE2”倒更像是一种自然品种,估计可能从以后出土的古人遗骨或组织中发现。相信因为西伯利亚特殊的纬度与气候,找到这样的古人组织应该不难。...
imvivi001 发表于 2017-9-2 12:51

昨天还在想从高纬度地区找到古人遗骨或组织中的‘耶氏鼠疫杆菌’,没想到今天就看到了大嘴博士早在2015年就找到了的实证,这方面还是不得不佩服大嘴博士的田野实战能力~
 楼主| 发表于 2017-9-3 23:53 | 显示全部楼层
55# imvivi001 1,犹太人确实有一支跟中亚及以东有点关系,但是进入欧洲时间对不上。在这几年的研究之前,学者认为中非草原有一个黑死病或是直接说瘟疫策源地,沿着尼罗河往上游传播,借此解释了包括査士丁尼瘟疫在内的一系列事件~~不过后来,因为14世纪黑死病的研究越来越深入,就又认为中亚是一个鼠疫策源地(后来的鼠疫,北非悲催的是传播上的下游地带嘛)。但是,那时候貌似没有明确6世纪,14世纪的黑死病是否具有联系~~比较含糊。安东尼瘟疫可未必是鼠疫啊,明显没有鼠疫性状嘛。应该是近东的某些传染病,古代瘟疫远不止鼠疫这么单薄。我在想,如果按照您说的非洲也有古老的类型,足够古老的话,那么最起码6世纪瘟疫应该确实只跟北非有关系吧?您之前说跟西伯利亚古人有关系,没道理东边没事,隔着个地中海,祸起埃及另外,从14世纪的情况看,鼠疫源地怕是很广泛,尤其跟里海有密切关系。
2,嘛,您有的地方肯定是调侃,我就稍微较真一下啦谢谢你提供的资料,长见识!!
3,没看到太多兰海的帖子,按照我的理解,主流犹太人还是跟中亚,北亚没啥关系吧,不知道会不会搞个乌龙
发表于 2017-9-4 07:47 | 显示全部楼层
55# imvivi001 1,犹太人确实有一支跟中亚及以东有点关系,但是进入欧洲时间对不上。在这几年的研究之前,学者认为中非草原有一个黑死病或是直接说瘟疫策源地,沿着尼罗河往上游传播,借此解释了包 ...
cytrug9 发表于 2017-9-3 23:53

现代犹太人的主流之一阿系犹太人当然与中亚存在明确的关系,这个在本坛早已不是新鲜话题了,呵呵

你说“学者认为中非草原有一个黑死病或是直接说瘟疫策源地,沿着尼罗河往上游传播, ...”,这个我倒是蛮感兴趣的,有原文链接吗?
 楼主| 发表于 2017-9-4 09:03 | 显示全部楼层
58# imvivi001 有哪个帖子提供了关于阿系犹太人与中亚关系的论述吗?萌新学习一下。。关于您的问题,中非草原是伊文斯的理论。可见http://m.doc88.com/p-4304415378018.html这篇论文有所涉及。
发表于 2017-9-4 09:44 | 显示全部楼层
59# cytrug9
The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry - 分子人类学讨论区 Molecular Anthropology - 人类生物学在线 Biological Anthropology online - Powered by Discuz!  http://www.ranhaer.com/viewthread.php?tid=20842

德裔犹太人的远东mtDNA - 线粒体/母系 Mitochondrial DNA - 人类生物学在线 Biological Anthropology online - Powered by Discuz!  http://www.ranhaer.com/viewthread.php?tid=30901


相关的帖子本坛有很多~
您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 注册

本版积分规则

小黑屋|手机版|Archiver|人类生物学在线 ( 苏ICP备16053048号 )

GMT+8, 2018-12-10 14:25 , Processed in 0.266335 second(s), 16 queries .

Powered by Discuz! X3.4

© 2001-2017 Comsenz Inc.

快速回复 返回顶部 返回列表