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楼主: 山戎地带

说夏后氏

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发表于 2017-11-14 17:00 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 lindberg 于 2017-11-14 17:17 编辑
二里头一期陶器,从器类上讲主要继承的是本地及稍南方和偏东方的。二期时,西方的齐家,客省庄二期器物增多。三期,四期时偏北方的鬲开始出现。这是人群的移动,或是观念与技术的传播,不得而知。但二期中型墓出现的 ...
山戎地带 发表于 2017-11-13 00:52
《孔子世家》:
明岁,子路死于卫。孔子病,子贡请见。孔子方负杖逍遥于门,曰:“赐,汝来何其晚也?”孔子因叹,歌曰:“太山坏乎!梁柱摧乎!哲人萎乎!”因以涕下。谓子贡曰:“天下无道久矣,莫能宗予。夏人殡 ...
W7167N 发表于 2017-8-10 08:06


这段文字里,三代停棺习俗的不同,很有些意思。

也许三代王族的停棺方位可能代表指向他们最早发迹的地方(当然不一定是他们更早祖先的起源地)。

请教山兄,二里头的信仰偏南怎么说呢?
发表于 2017-11-14 17:30 | 显示全部楼层
40# 癯鹤 天人感应每如此,智能搜索也解意。我其实不喜欢吃咸的,但是一写这帖子,希望吃类似烤馕那种盐加面的食物了,晚上母亲给外甥烙糖饼,我专门让母亲给烙了张加盐和十三香的小饼,现在正吃着。然后看到我的新浪送来一则跟夙沙氏煮盐业有关的新闻。


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河北黄骅唐代煮盐遗址揭秘千年前手工制盐技艺




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2017年11月14日10:36 新华网
河北黄骅唐代煮盐遗址揭秘千年前手工制盐技艺

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  新华社石家庄11月14日电(记者王民)日前,考古工作者在对河北黄骅市一处唐代煮盐遗址进行抢救性发掘过程中,再次发现两口盐井,连同现场发现的卤水沟、摊场、淋卤坑、盐灶等大量遗迹,组成了一个较完整的煮盐流程,再现了千年前的手工制盐技艺。
  新发现的两口盐井位于遗址东北部,井口直径约2.5米,井壁由条形砖砌成,砖面已被草木灰染成黑色。井口处发现大量草木灰和红黏土堆积物,井底发现部分残木架、苇织物等。算上2016年12月份发现的一口盐井,这处遗址已发现3口盐井。
  据考古人员介绍,这些盐井均为唐代遗迹,建造年代可能稍有先后,但是紧密关联。盐井于近海地下卤水丰富处建成,目的在于汲取地下卤水,为煮盐作坊提供必需的生产原料。多处大口径盐井的发现,表明唐代的制盐规模和产量已经达到相当程度。
  根据现场发现的制盐遗迹,考古专家推测其工艺流程基本可为四步:先从盐井中提取地下卤水,经卤水沟导流至刮卤摊场;刮卤摊场用草木灰铺成,卤水与草木灰发生化学反应,并经过日晒结成盐土;再把盐土刮起放进淋卤坑淋滤,从而得到含盐量或浓度更高的卤水溶液;最后把淋滤和沉淀的卤水转移到盐灶边的储卤坑中,再上灶煎煮成盐,煮盐的盐盘应该是铜或铁制的。
  对古代盐业生产和发展有深入研究的山东大学文化遗产研究院副院长、考古系教授王青说,黄骅唐代煮盐遗址的发现印证了古代文献记载的“淋煎法”传统制盐工艺,根据此前在山东北部沿海发现的距今3000年前后商周时期的煮盐遗址判断,“淋煎法”工艺在商周时期已经出现,但是还比较原始。黄骅唐代煮盐遗址反映的工艺更为先进,例如盐井变得大而深,摊场做得也更加坚硬平整,煮盐用的盐盘也不是商周时期的陶器,而是省时省工且可以回收利用的金属盘。这表明,唐代煮盐工艺成本更低,效率更高。这些遗迹为研究我国古代制盐工艺及盐业发展历史提供了重要依据,对了解当时经济社会状况有重要意义。
  据了解,黄骅是“长芦盐”主产地之一,盐业生产历史悠久。此次发现的唐代煮盐遗址位于渤海西岸、黄骅市羊二庄镇东部,面积近1500平方米,距离全国重点文物保护单位海丰镇遗址约2.5公里。
 楼主| 发表于 2017-11-14 19:14 | 显示全部楼层
35# 山戎地带
陈剩勇《中国第一王朝的崛起》。是葬俗啊,殷墟出土了很多明器。
剪径者 发表于 2017-11-14 10:18

  这本书已经找到。非常感谢。待我详细阅后再谈。我拿到后先翻了有关的那章,按我以前阅读的原报告记忆,作者所提诸墓葬,与礼记所言的夏后氏葬俗还是差距颇大的。
  中国古代的丧葬制度包括埋葬制度和居丧制度。按  说文解字  葬 ,藏也。葬俗,那按我个人解,就是如何藏的习俗。明器,现在大家都是把它归入葬具,主指陶器 青铜器之类。当然,如何界定,还是有讨论的余地。这里,我就不再纠缠了。你说的晚商所出很多明器,是不是指觚、爵组合?若指这个,我的理解它是源自二里头,在二里头时代,出在居址和墓葬中,但以墓葬所出居多,二里岗时代也类似。但到晚商时,只见于墓中。不再是实用器。但这里有个很有趣的问题,这个现象只限于特定区域,不见于其他。所以我的感觉它是一个延续,一个二里头二里岗的延续,应是本地人群的原生因素延续。这与晚商的上层没多大关系。一点个人理解。
发表于 2017-11-14 20:17 | 显示全部楼层
  这本书已经找到。非常感谢。待我详细阅后再谈。我拿到后先翻了有关的那章,按我以前阅读的原报告记忆,作者所提诸墓葬,与礼记所言的夏后氏葬俗还是差距颇大的。
  中国古代的丧葬制度包括埋葬制度和居丧制度。 ...
山戎地带 发表于 2017-11-14 19:14

明器重点是与实用器相区别。怎么说与上层无关呢?殷墟的贵族也用明器,妇好墓就有。
 楼主| 发表于 2017-11-14 20:34 | 显示全部楼层
我们俩的观点不同。我先问个问题,你认为晚商来自哪里?
发表于 2017-11-14 20:38 | 显示全部楼层
我们俩的观点不同。我先问个问题,你认为晚商来自哪里?
山戎地带 发表于 2017-11-14 20:34

我认同主流观点,商就是下七垣-辉卫-南关外-二里岗-殷墟序列
 楼主| 发表于 2017-11-14 20:40 | 显示全部楼层
ok .你我观点差距太大。无法进一步谈了。
发表于 2017-11-14 20:42 | 显示全部楼层
47# 山戎地带
你的观点呢?你认为晚商和早商来源不一样?
 楼主| 发表于 2017-11-14 20:45 | 显示全部楼层
就说最近的二里岗。是如何裂变为晚商的?你用主流解释一下
发表于 2017-11-14 20:58 | 显示全部楼层
49# 山戎地带
什么意思?你是说所谓中商分界问题吗?这方面的研究文献很多啊,不过这和我们讨论的问题无关吧。
 楼主| 发表于 2017-11-14 21:03 | 显示全部楼层
你我观点差距太大。不说了。建议你去台湾看晚商出土展品,或等考古吧。
发表于 2017-11-16 17:39 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 癯鹤 于 2017-11-16 17:42 编辑
……
吃盐影响人类进化,一个反证就是不吃盐的猩猩至今还在树上,而人类从杂食到肉食摄取盐类增加,脑容量一直在增长(盐类影响大脑容量有个例证,就是体型接近人类的海豚的脑容量也很大,因为它们也生活在齁咸的大海中嘛;而陆生动物,大象脑子还算可观,也需要不断找盐土吃。我怀疑晚更新世大灭绝的主要原因是气候变暖冰川消融引发的大洪水把很多传统盐矿、盐土区域给冲淡了,大型动物找不到盐土吃,脑子活动不开了,于是灭绝)。但是这不是主要问题,最近一万年来,人类脑容量其实又有降低趋势,但是人类的智力却依然在增长,何也,农业社会增加吃盐量之故也!另外怀疑,从黑人到白人的进化(其实我并不认可,我更认为是一棕化三色),是跟采盐、吃盐有关的(虽然黑人也吃盐),最早进化成雅利安人的就是采盐人,吃得咸中咸,方为雅利安!吃得苦中苦,方为人上人!近朱者赤近墨者黑,近白盐及白雪多了变白人,巴彦富长良心,有积德癖也就爱转基因,咸盐吸收多了,可能刺激基因变异,皮肤虹膜浅白化,于是形成了白人!采盐直接导致雅利安人几大重要性状的形成:堵鼻孔,高鼻因此进化而来;为防汗水溶解了盐流进眼里,所以深目;同样为了防止咸水进入耳道,所以有油性耵聍(同样可以参考鲸蜡)。这些都是适应工作环境的变异,进化论没错的!所有这些闲话,都是因为看到下面这篇文章而引发:
非洲采盐人,因工作眼瞎耳聋,身体被腐蚀成白色!
……
癯鹤 发表于 2017-11-14 13:40

天人感应每如此,新闻得来如信守!我就说嘛,钠离子、钾离子和氯离子等对于神经传导意义重大,所以吃盐很大程度上促进了人类大脑结构和功能的进化。看看不缺无机盐的海洋生物,不要考虑进化历史(比如生命最初可能诞生于海洋,为啥陆地进化出人类这种智慧生物而海洋却没),只看动物类群,软体动物和低等的脊椎动物——鱼类都有(相对)很高的智商!而海狮、海豚智商高,大家也都是知道的。淡水鱼类一般就没这么聪明了(射水鱼大概例外)。所以沿海族群一般比较聪明,是有原因的——这就是最大原因。

BBC在澳洲大堡礁拍摄纪录片时首次发现石斑鱼与八爪鱼合作捕捉躲藏在珊瑚内的猎物


来源: 神秘的地球
  • 时间:2017年11月16日 16:23









BBC在澳洲大堡礁拍摄纪录片时首次发现石斑鱼与八爪鱼合作捕捉躲藏在珊瑚内的猎物



视频:BBC在澳洲大堡礁拍摄纪录片时首次发现石斑鱼与八爪鱼合作捕捉躲藏在珊瑚内的猎物

(神秘的地球uux.cn报道)一般认为高智慧生物其中一项象征,是懂得与其他生物合作捕捉猎物。英国广播公司(BBC)在拍摄纪录片时,首次发现石斑鱼与八爪鱼合作,捕捉躲藏在珊瑚内的猎物,令科学家大开眼界。专家还推断,鱼类的智商足以匹敌乌鸦,甚至不比灵长类生物逊色。

纪绿片在澳洲大堡礁拍摄,显示当石斑鱼的目睹猎物时,会快速追击目标,迫他们逃进珊瑚的隙缝之中。石斑鱼因身驱太庞大,无法进入隙缝内。它们此时会稍为将自己身躯的颜色转淡,然后倒立并摆动尾巴,作为通知邻近八爪鱼的信号。当八爪鱼“接报”后,便会走到珊瑚前,以触手将猎物抽出。石斑鱼则一直在珊瑚外一直等候,逃出的小鱼部分会冲入其口中。惟石斑鱼并非可以与所有鱼类合作无间,当它们在海鳗前摆出同类姿势时,对方往往不懂意思,无法作出配合。

英国剑桥大学的科学家韦尔(Alex Vail)形容,他首次看到这幕场景时,也感到十分惊奇。最令他感到惊叹的是,石斑鱼是有着全盘计划,并且预计所得的收获,这显示出它们与黑猩猩有着相近的智力。
发表于 2017-12-15 16:28 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 癯鹤 于 2017-12-15 16:33 编辑
说到阳城,昨日各想到“阳关”,私以为可能与大夏西迁有关,然孤证不立,一时无据可寻。
今日突然发现说吐火罗语(吐火罗被某些学者当成大夏)的龟兹的都城也叫阳城: (自百度百科:阳城)
该地位于天山以南,塔里 ...
癯鹤 发表于 2017-11-12 10:30

言与神同在,越看越明白!
天人感应每如此,我不干活有人干!采得百花成蜜后,他人考古证虚言!
玉奇喀特——月氏·凯尔特——尉迟·哥特

斯图加特——司徒家的(《书·盘庚中》:“永建乃。” 孔传:“卿大夫。”日耳曼语的堡、家、市似乎皆与汉语同源

安煎——安集延——engine(火车跑得快,全靠车头带)

戊己——窝集(原始森林)——virgin(中规中矩,闺中)

它乾——token(可见确实是羁縻政权)

乌垒——乌拉尔——瓦剌(西北,乌拉诺斯——天空,乾位)

乌垒——woolly(西戎织皮昆仑,应就特指昆仑台——轮台的西戎)——Wooley


学者初步确认:玉奇喀特古城可能就是东汉时期西域都护府它乾城所在地
者初步确认:玉奇喀特古城可能就是东汉时期西域都护府它乾城所在地
2017年12月13日 16:31新华网
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  新华社乌鲁木齐12月13日电(记者 符晓波、张鸿墀)记者在新疆新和县汉西域都护府遗址考古论证会上获悉,经过多年考古调查工作及诸多文献印证,来自众多研究机构的历史、考古学家初步确认:位于新疆阿克苏地区新和县境内的玉奇喀特古城可能就是约两千年前东汉王朝设立在西域的最高军政机构——西域都护府它乾城所在地。
  公元前60年,西汉王朝在西域的乌垒城设“西域都护府”,中央政权自此在西域设官、驻军、推行政令,行使国家主权。西域都护府后来从乌垒城迁往它乾城。至东汉年间(汉和帝永元三年即公元91年),班超为西域都护,居龟兹它乾城,任都护11年。
  经国家文物局批准,北京大学考古文博学院和新疆文物考古研究所组成联合考古队,在北京大学教授陈凌带领下,自2013年起,利用遥感、钻探等多种探测手段,基本摸清了新和县玉奇喀特古城的大致轮廓和结构。
  综合考古队确定的古城规模、年代与出土文物和相关文献的综合考证,北京大学考古文博学院、新疆文物考古研究所、中国社会科学院、南京大学等机构的大多数学者认为,玉奇喀特古城可能就是它乾城,进一步的确定工作将在今后的考古工作中展开。
  玉奇喀特古城位于新和县县城西南方向22公里处,是新疆维吾尔自治区重点文物保护单位。
  陈凌介绍,玉奇喀特古城是一个“三重城”,即由外城、中城、内城三道城廊组成,均为夯土结构,每一重城墙都有一道城门。最外层城墙东南侧还有一瓮城,瓮城门道宽15米,城墙厚度达20米。在中城和内城中,分布有环城道路、房屋及高台建筑。
  据探测,这座“三重城”是目前新疆发掘的370余座古城中规模最大的城池,其最外围城墙东西直线距离达到1471米,南北距离约800米。
  “城池的体量与行政级别和重要性密切相关,这也是推断玉奇喀特古城两千年前是一个区域中心的重要依据。”陈凌说。
  据考察,中心处的内城和中间城属于同一时期,而最外侧城墙年代偏晚,但都属于汉代夯土。通过钻探,考古队发现,地下60厘米至3.5米之间,有非常丰富的地层堆积,出土了大量汉代彩陶,证明此区间为当时汉代人生活的基本地面;而在地下3.5米到4米之间,则发现有比汉代更早的地层堆积,可推测到与内地战国年代同一时期。
  陈凌介绍,1928年,著名考古学家黄文弼先生曾在这里发现两枚印章,分别是汉政府颁发给西域昆仑山北麓羌族的官印“汉归义羌长印”以及东汉王莽时期的西域都护李崇的“李崇之印”。正是这两枚印章的发现,为认定玉奇喀特古城为东汉时期西域都护府所在地提供了重要的文物证据。
  中国社科院历史所中外关系史研究室主任李锦绣认为,玉奇喀特古城规模大、年代符合,又有文物印证,基本将西汉、东汉两朝西域都护府两者关系梳理清楚,是西域都护府考古研究的重要发现。
  陈凌说,按距离核算,乌垒城(今轮台县)至它乾城(今新和县)约200公里,以汉代距离测算有近500里地。“这进一步说明至东汉年间,中央政府管辖西域的范围由东往西扩大了近500里,代表着中央王朝在西域的管控力进一步增强。”



发表于 2017-12-22 10:50 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 癯鹤 于 2017-12-22 10:56 编辑
2# 山戎地带 觉得中国古墓的黄肠题凑真的很像斯基泰人的木椁古墓。刘邦的姓氏,其实是“Leo”——狮子,刘字本义——金刀切割,冶金术自西北传来,狮、虎、鹰、鹿、马也算斯基泰人常见神兽,御龙氏可能类似斯基泰萨 ...
癯鹤 发表于 2017-11-25 00:00

南西伯利亚2000年前的龙带钩(驳扣——buckle),跟中国的龙包括楚国的龙的形象何其相似乃尔:


Unique dragon found in Siberia
By The Siberian Times reporter
19 April 2017
Creature with 'a typical serpentine pose' existed more than 2,000 years ago, say scientists.

Unique dragon found in Siberia. Picture: Andrey Borodovsky

Detailed analysis of belt buckles unearthed by a Soviet tractor driver in the modern day Republic of Khakassia proves the existence of a distinct dragon on the territory of modern Russia, according to experts.
The mythical creature is seen as distinct from other dragons, notably those famous in China.
'In China of that time, which was Han era, a set image of a dragon, later one the main symbols of the national identity, did not yet exist. Yet the same period in Siberia we have a formed composition of dragon images in a typical serpentine pose,' said Andrei Borodovsky, a researcher from the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography, part of the Siberian branch of Russian Academy of Sciences.
'Although at the end of the first millennium BC the territory of South Siberia was under very strong Chinese influence, the buckles depicting the Iyussky dragon were most likely were produced locally. They were original, and not copies. It was an independent development of the image.'
'The dragon's figure is a symbol that allows us to say that Siberia has always had a set of particular, specific features as a cultural area.'





They were original, and not copies. Pictures: Andrey Borodovsky

The dragon is seen as a talisman protecting the owner from danger, researchers have suggested.
Archeologist Vitaly Larichev said image of the Siberian dragon may be linked to ancient notions about the calendar and astronomy.
It is known that nearby ancient astronomic observations were held at an 'observatory' called Sunduki in Khakassia.
A Chinese dictionary from AD 200 reads: 'On the day of spring equinox the dragon flies to the sky, on the day of autumn equinox it delves into abyss and covers in mud.'
Dr Borodovsky believes that the Siberian dragon image were dated to the end of the first millennium BC until the second century AD.
Then they vanished.









The belt buckles unearthed by a Soviet tractor driver in the modern day Republic of Khakassia. Pictures: Alexander Kuptsov, The Siberian Times

Later dragons were copies of the familiar Chinese dragons with a zigzag movement.
The dragon buckles - some eight in number - were found by Iyus state collective farm worker Sergei Fefelov in the mid-1970s as he ploughed a field. Initially he thought the metal was a tractor part, but then he noticed the treasure was wrapped in birch bark.
Digging around, he found a large cauldron made of red bronze with 271 items inside.
New research on the buckles has disclosed the existence of the Siberian dragon in ancient mythology.
The case was highlighted in Science of Siberia, journal of the Siberian branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences.

...
癯鹤 发表于 2017-12-18 23:50

树袋熊先生最近拉来很多考古文章的概述,巴拉巴拉,考拉考拉的,让人受教。尤其对咱这一穷二白买不起大部头又不好读书但爱甚解的人,真是既省财力又省精力,赞!然而兰版限制,不容咱这真言针鼹置喙,只能在奥陶纪地面上隔山打牛向远方的尤加利树发话。有个问题,先上材料:
W7167N 发表于 2017-12-20 08:31 | 只看该作者



王青的观点

B:五:墓主身份问题

仔细分析这些中型墓我们发现,除了是否随葬镶嵌牌饰是明显的区别,其他随葬品的种类也存在一些差别,一是随葬镶嵌牌饰的墓不出玉牙璋,不随葬镶嵌牌饰的墓则出玉牙璋,后者如保存较好的80ⅤM3,已被盗扰的75ⅦKM7和76ⅢKM6也是如此;二是随葬镶嵌牌饰的墓出玉璧戚而不出玉钺,不随葬镶嵌牌饰的墓出玉钺不出玉璧戚,后者如保存较好的80ⅢM2和80ⅤM3,已被盗扰的75ⅦKM7也是如此(附表1)。

按照《周礼·典端》的记载,“牙璋以起军旅,以治兵守”。尽管这是后起的说法不一定正确,但与明确属于祭祀用器的镶嵌牌饰不出一墓,应意味着二里头时期的牙璋和镶嵌牌饰在功用上是不同的。
(自:http://www.ranhaer.org/viewthread.php?tid=37137&page=21#pid526966
W7167N 发表于 2017-12-21 08:38 | 只看该作者



王青的观点

D:五:墓主身份问题

再进一步分析又能发现,那些随葬各种镶嵌牌饰的墓葬,其随葬品的种类也存在较明显差别,一是铜牌饰与铜铃(及玉铃舌)同时随葬的墓,如保存较好的81ⅤM4、84ⅥM11、87ⅥM57、95ⅨC14墓等;二是随葬无铜托牌饰的墓不随葬铜铃(及玉铃舌),如保存较好的95ⅨC12墓、75ⅥKM3、84ⅥM6等(附表1);三是无铜托牌饰的出土位置往往不在墓主胸前。只有87ⅥM57除外,此墓的铜牌饰、铜铃可能与无铜托牌饰同出,对这个例外笔者尚无法做出合理解释,只能暂时搁置。

很多学者都已注意到铜牌饰与铜铃伴出的现象,02ⅤM3的镶嵌龙形器与铜铃紧靠在一起更加验证了这一点,而随葬无铜托牌饰的墓不随葬铜铃又从另外的角度加深了这一点。
(自:http://www.ranhaer.org/viewthread.php?tid=37137&page=21#pid527080

我有个问题,就是二里头那出土不同牌饰和玉器的坟墓有没做过性别考古?——若还有遗骸,提示,打酱油也将有重量论文发的哟,好发不难,哟西,哟西!
记得上古女巫为主,男巫地位较低(被称为覡,明显就是在女巫旁边看场子的陪衬而已),所以假如那铜牌饰什么的真是巫师的,说不定都是女的呢!正也正常,女主内,男主外,掌管征伐的男人以牙璋兵器等陪葬,主管宫内祭祀的女人呢,则可以用铜牌饰(如果如学者所言是巫师所用)铜铃陪葬喽(二里头古人泉下有知,会不会发出铜铃般的笑声?天雨粟,鬼夜哭!)!富豪妇好那样既主内又征外的,棒棒哒,两种礼器都可以陪葬!
所以我怀疑二里头不过是一个行都,但是对于东亚来说,可能是中心城市,但是对于大夏,就是一个边境城市,驻守者本来也是将军级别。不排除夏王后来因为气候变化、军事斗争或财富享乐等原因迁都于此(文化地名随着人群移动。同名,却可能不同地方,这是常理,后人或许记错?如东京,宋指汴京,日本指东京,越南指河内;而洛阳呢,唐朝时为东京,北宋时为西京),或许也只是按钵巡狩,却不成想被早已在东亚做大做强的商族给来了个斩首行动,对于根基不牢的夏民族来说,结果可想而知,鸟兽散散入四裔也没多大影响力,所以后来周朝分封时夏人的力量很薄弱。
发现这么则新闻,给我的理论以有力支持,看看人家俄罗斯,瘦死骆驼比马大,人家的考古做的,扎实呀!不止是人家占尽天时地利人和,而是做学术的仔细态度和研究的深入程度,让我朝学者们有什么脸自卖自夸?
《史记》记载匈奴是夏后氏后裔,南西伯利亚有上面新闻里所说2000年之前的龙图腾牌饰出土。下面这则新闻,南西伯利亚2000年之前的墓葬,文中推说是匈奴墓,发现的牌饰呢,虽然跟二里头的牌饰材质不同,但是有没可能是相近起源和类似功能呢?那个巴钩(buckle)——牌饰不是铜的,而是用煤精石,我觉得更有巫术意义,夏人尚黑嘛!人家是女性墓葬,所以调查一下二里头墓葬的性别问题,我觉得很有必要!不要因为这些文物是二里头墓葬迄今所见工艺等级最高的,就一定要把它跟夏王或公卿联系起来,这种一厢情愿拉郎配不认真考古的态度,让人实在不敢恭维!


Chic women's jewellery made of coal, encrusted with jade and coral from 2,200 years ago
By Sergey Zubchuk and Anna Liesowska
09 October 2017
Eyecatching belt buckles worn by Xiongnu female invaders is found buried on the banks of the Yenesei River in modern-day Tuva Republic.

'Another buckle was encrusted with carnelian, jade, coral and turquoise.' Picture here and below: Marina Kilunovskaya

Women buried in a unique ancient necropolis went to the afterlife wearing intriguingly decorated belt buckles made of coal, new archeological finds have shown.
They were also adorned with flame-shaped bronze decorations on their shoulders.
In addition, they wore magnificent bronze buckles on their belts, while Xiongnu men wore buckles mainly of iron.
The buckles are artistically decorated depicting fantastical animals such as dragons as well as leopards, panthers, horses, yaks and snakes.


The women-only buckles made from coal are large - up to 20 cm in diameter.

'The most interesting and richest finds are in the women's graves', said Dr Marina Kilunovskaya, who led the expedition to the Ala-Tei burial ground on the Yenisei River in the Republic of Tuva.
The women-only buckles made from coal are large - up to 20 cm in diameter, decorated with carved animal images or beautifully encrusted with semiprecious coral, carnelian, turquoise, and jade.
'On one of the buckles you can see engravings,' said the scientist.


On one of the coa buckles can be seen Scythian-style engravings.

On one side are two goats and arrows that pierce them. On the other, a horse is depicted in Scythian style.
'Another was encrusted with carnelian, jade, coral and turquoise.'
She said: 'Evidently, their owners were very rich people who came from Trans-Baikal region or Mongolia. They found this material, it was interesting for them, and they used it for their decorations.'

Ala-Tei burial ground located on the Yenisei River in the Republic of Tuva.

'Most of the remains here belong to women.
'My colleagues often describe Xiongnu as big warriors, invaders.
'But these invaders, as you can see, are women in fact' - and they came northwards from the borders of modern-day China.



'First of all, in the central element of the belts are large bronze buckles with the image of animals - bulls, camels, horses, and snakes.'

The coal belt decorations worn by the women warriors 'were not for everyday use, of course, but for some special occasions, like weddings or funerals', she believes.
There are only ten such coal buckle decorations in the world 'and here we have four', with all being native to Siberia, said Dr Kilunovskaya, of the Institute for the History of Material Culture, Russian Academy of Sciences, in St. Petersburg.

They were also adorned with flame-shaped bronze decorations on their shoulders.

'I started excavations in 2015, and there are 80 burials here with no mounds,' she told The Siberian Times.
'Most of the ancient people are buried in rectangular stone boxes, sometimes boat-shaped, or in wooden coffins or frames, with a stone covering.
'Some burials are without any construction inside.
'Many include the heads of horses.

Bronze imitations of cowrie shells.

'Obviously, there was horse skin, too, which has not preserved - so only the skull and hooves survive.'
'First of all, in the central element of the belts are large bronze buckles with the image of animals - bulls, camels, horses, and snakes.
'Other details of the female belt, in most cases, are also made of bronze - these are rectangular hexagonal plaques, bronze imitations of cowrie shells, simple and openwork rings, and Chinese Wu Shu coins.

'Most of them are the early mirrors of the Western Han Dynasty (II-I centuries BC).'

'We found whole bronze mirrors or their fragments.
'Most of them are the early mirrors of the Western Han Dynasty (II-I centuries BC), but there were fragments of two earlier Chinese mirrors belonging to an earlier period.'
On male remains there were 'iron buckles on the belts'.
Finds included buckles for shoes, knives, iron rings and hooks.


'These were located right above the graves. I believe these were kind on lamps.'

'Another interesting find in the graves were strange small flat vessels separated in the middle by a septum with an opening in the centre,' she said.
'These were located right above the graves. I believe these were kind on lamps.'
Dr Kilunovskaya admitted: 'Actually... I'm afraid to give this interview, because when the general public learns about such an archaeological site... we may find 'black diggers' coming.
'The only hope is that it is hard to reach this place.

Glacier bumblebee lived through the Ice Age on this barren Arctic island. Picture: Federal Center for Integrated Arctic Research

'There are quite a lot of burial grounds in this area - dated from Scythian times to the Middle Ages (2nd century BC to the 12-13th centuries) and they are being destroyed by water.
'When we came here for the first time, we saw a lot of skulls under a steep river bank and green bones there.
'Green because there was bronze items in burials. This looked terrible... So we try to save what we can.'
Due to climate conditions, work here can only go ahead during the summer months and more research will be undertaken next year.

Glacier bumblebee lived through the Ice Age on this barren Arctic island. Picture: Federal Center for Integrated Arctic Research

She describes the finds as 'the richest belt decorations'.
'The belt is the main attribute of the nomads, so it was richly decorated with various plaques - mostly of bronze, but also coal.'
The Xiongnu were confederation of nomadic peoples who, say ancient Chinese sources, inhabited the eastern Asian Steppe from the 3rd century BC to the late 1st century AD.
The research was carried out with the help of Pavel Leus and the Society for the Exploration of EurAsia
发表于 2017-12-22 12:00 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 癯鹤 于 2017-12-22 12:07 编辑

我以前在《龙华起信论》里论证过“chicken”和“赤坎”有语源关联。今天看到南西伯利亚有个民族叫“Chelkans”,于是联想:

赤坎——奇幹——Chelkans——chicken(《逸周书·王会解》:“奇干善芳。善芳者,头若雄鸡,佩之令人不昧。” 孔晁 注:“奇干,亦北狄。善芳,鸟名。不昧,不忘也。”)


最近看到这么个新闻,那个有着类似印第安人头冠和法老王冠还有良渚文化玉雕人头冠的雕塑,是不是就是奇幹人模拟的善芳鸟?据《山海经》、《穆天子传》羽民也是在西北、东南都有。

Unique 5,000 year old figurine with feather headdress found in old potato field in Novosibirsk

By Anna Liesowska
20 October 2017
'Absolutely stunning' ancient ornaments discovered with no known comparisons, presenting a puzzle for archeologists: which culture made this?

Dr Natalia Basova holds a figurine with a feather headdress. Picture: Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography SB RAS

The finds were made on a pre-historic burial site Turist-2 close to the east bank of the Ob River in Novosibirsk.
The most sensational is a figurine made of an as yet unknown organic material featuring what appears to be a feather headdress.
Or could it be a halo atop the head of a deity?
Researchers will now work hard to decipher the meaning of this intriguing relic.


On the place of an old potato field were found Neolithic and late Bronze Age settlements, Bronze Age burial site and a single burial of Turkic time. Pictures: Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography SB RAS, NGS.ru

Feather headgear is not familiar in archeological sites in ancient Siberia - although they were in the Middle East perhaps one or two thousand years later - and leading Archeologist Vyacheslav Molodin has called this and other finds 'absolutely unique'
Head of the expedition, Dr Natalia Basova, outlined other unexpected finds.
'We found a figurine of a bird made of bone, and most likely it was sewn onto clothes or was a kind of pendant,' she said.
'There were four anthropomorphic figurines, made of mammoth tusk, sandstone, birch burl and an unknown organic material, which needs to be checked.


The figurine was made of an as yet unknown organic material. Pictures: Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography SB RAS

'The anthropomorphic figurines were most likely sewn onto clothes as they have holes.
'There is also a figurine of a moose, made of shale, but we are not sure if we can attribute it clearly.
'We found the figurine in the wall of an excavation hole, not in a burial.'
This figurine is now restored and was probably used for 'ritual purposes', she said.
In male burials, archeologists uncovered belt buckles made of bone and small sculptures, including anthropomorphic.

Anthropomorphic figurine made of mammoth tusk. Picture: Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography SB RAS

The preliminary dating of the site is up to the end of the third millennium BC, but stone implements were found from the Neolithic Age, possibly as old as the fourth millennium BC.
Found too was a late Bronze age settlement of Irmen culture and medieval burial from Turkik times.
The main ancient burial ground is probably from the Krotovo culture from the middle Bronze Age but the experts want more time to assess.
The finds are likely to find their way to Russia's premier museum, the St Petersburg Hermitage .
Professor Molodin said of the figurines: 'The finds are absolutely unique. This is most likely the third millennium BC.

Figurine of a bird made of bone, most likely it was sewn onto clothes or was a kind of pendant. Picture: Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography SB RAS

'According to the iconography of images, they are similar to the Okunev or Samus culture.
'But the first did not reach our territories, and the second has a completely different funeral rite.
'By funeral practice,this is without a doubt is Krotovo culture.
There are no parallels to the objects that have been found.
'They are absolutely stunning and, without exaggeration, worthy of the St Petersburg Hermitage Museum.



'By funeral practice,this is without a doubt is Krotovo culture.' Pictures: Institute of Archaeology and Ethnography SB RAS

'I am sure that experts will examine them more than once.'
The excavations are more complex because the natural layering of the soil was disturbed by a giant wave that washed over the site - called Tourist-2, some 4,000 years ago. This was caused by an earthquake, say geologists.
In more modern times it was a potato field before soil was removed to 'beautify the city'.
The debris from construction sites was dumped here. The river was also dredged and the silt put on this site.
发表于 2017-12-22 21:37 | 显示全部楼层
我以前在《龙华起信论》里论证过“chicken”和“赤坎”有语源关联。今天看到南西伯利亚有个民族叫“Chelkans”,于是联想:

赤坎——奇幹——Chelkans——chicken(《逸周书·王会解》:“奇干善芳。善芳者,头若 ...
癯鹤 发表于 2017-12-22 12:00

这个网址很不错
发表于 2017-12-22 22:07 | 显示全部楼层
56# lindberg 呵呵,借花献佛,其实我也是从你转载的考古新闻顺藤摸瓜找到这个网站的。确实挺不错,似乎比传说中的《真理报》靠谱。不过我现在根本没心情多看新闻,我的英语水平比汉语差太多,汉语新闻我都看着头疼。不好读书但爱甚解,一想多了脑子各种短路,真是看不下去。
发表于 2017-12-22 23:49 | 显示全部楼层
57# 癯鹤
等到人工智能大发展了,有新的翻译软件出来就好了,现在的翻译软件
发表于 2017-12-23 00:01 | 显示全部楼层
我是一直为电脑和网络的残破发愁。网络速度缓慢和中病毒般的诡变造成的效率的低下已经使我对翻译软件都不感冒了!
发表于 2017-12-25 12:25 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 癯鹤 于 2017-12-25 14:14 编辑
我以前在《龙华起信论》里论证过“chicken”和“赤坎”有语源关联。今天看到南西伯利亚有个民族叫“Chelkans”,于是联想:

赤坎——奇幹——Chelkans——chicken(《逸周书·王会解》:“奇干善芳。善芳者,头若 ...
癯鹤 发表于 2017-12-22 12:00


为什么土耳其和火鸡都是 turkey? - 知乎
2016年8月15日 - 根据维基百科的,turkey这个词在英语中经过了Turkye, Torke, Turkie, Turky, Turkey的变化。然后,说说火鸡turkey。原来啊,中世纪的欧洲餐桌上菜品并不丰富,土豆、...
https://www.zhihu.com/question... [url=][/url]


- 百度快照


今年是火鸡年,《2017丁酉年是“火鸡”之年_网易新闻》,没有奥斯曼土耳其帝国,欧洲的大航海时代猴年马月才能到来?无怪乎英语“火鸡”竟与“土耳其”同音。难怪美帝感恩火鸡!因为远古祖源或文化相关导致名词暗通款曲,是很自然的现象。以动植物尤其是人们赖以为生的动植物命名族名、人名,或者相反,都是很正常的。其实托尔特克、阿兹特克、德克萨斯什么的,里面通用族名“德克、特克”跟“突厥”(特克斯——八卦城——八滑,想起了乃曼网友的Y类型)应该是同源词,只从名字来看他们就是各种“突厥”。可见阿尔泰突厥人与北美洲人确实存在基因和文化上的关联,也就是Y-Q、Y-C、Y-R的这些古老词汇冥冥中一直存在。


今天是耶诞节,基督诞辰。本人论证过“鸡泽甲氏狄”与“Jesus Christ”有同源关系。
也看到宫玉海先生考证颛顼就是耶稣,宗教神话源头在吉林(鸡林)的说法了,从语言文化上应该是确实有远缘的(不过没细看其文章),而苏联在远东设立过犹太自治州(为什么我用百度搜索个“犹太自治州”都吃力?有啥文化妨碍么?),也莫不是物极必反狐死首丘之故哉(示罗——新罗,呵呵哒)。刚查了下,俄语“犹太人”(еврей)发音接近“医巫闾”,而“犹太”(иудейский)——“意第绪”,发音也接近“夷吾狄”。说实在的,虽然我反对文化卑躬屈膝,但是文化讲究客观。不做送子观音,就做送祖罗汉(医巫闾山——夷乌洛浑——于夫罗可汗——伊吾卢汗——亚伯拉罕——欧罗巴——约鲁巴)!我要说,山戎真可能跟犹太有关系,难怪叫“闪米特”(山民氐),“意第绪”似乎也跟“夷狄徐无”有些关系(呵呵,徐戎——徐罗伐——新罗——示罗——斯拉夫)。满洲之先民把他们赶向了西方(到西方当然只是少数精英,并且可能是母权制的,如一滴水汇入西方民族大洋,除了文化上做过统治者的印记,基本就不显山露水了),满洲吃猪,成了他们的忌讳!东方属青色,犹太还记着,所以回中国,也以蓝帽回回而自居。以俺的亚特兰蒂斯新解理论,亚特兰蒂斯遗民自东向西,从基里亚克、科里亚克一路西去,留下N多同源地名(当然更早同源,来自西方也可能)。
夏人喜爱绿松石,而绿松石被欧美称为“突厥玉”。按夏后氏——>鬼方&土方——>匈奴——>突厥的谱系,也确实有联系的。《礼记·明堂位》:“灌尊, 夏后氏以鸡彝,……”大夏西迁,入于流沙(撒哈拉),使得整个亚洲都被称为“大夏”(Asia)。雷同地名遍地,不可求桓公所伐大夏矣,而桓公所伐山戎也当然不是闪米特(是否以色列人失踪部落?我不敢认同,不过有一两个也不打紧,来而不往非礼也,豕韦——鲜卑——示巴——塞尔维亚&阿尔巴尼亚都西传了,凭啥不准人家一回回东来朝觐贸易呢?)。
雄鸡司晨(Christian),中国古代传说东方有桃都山和仙鸡(按位置,其实北美洲正好合适)。维舟鸡林考》介绍的这个信息很有趣:
据7世纪的唐代高僧义净记载,当时印度对朝鲜有一个古怪的称呼“矩矩吒医说罗”,这个梵文词可还原为Kukkutesvara,意为“鸡贵”[1]。义净也是唯一记录下这个称呼的作者,别无佐证,因此王邦维在对这一词条笺注时也只标明:“此词来源不详,此传说出于何处亦不详”[2],不过出于学者的敏感,他谨慎地联系到朝鲜另一个较为人知的古称:鸡林,“鸡贵、鸡林两名似乎有些关系”。本文不仅意在证明这种关系,并意图通过这一名称的考订,理解和展现东亚精神世界的一部分。

“Kukkutesvara”颇让人联想到玛雅人的羽蛇神“库库尔坎”。这跟龙图腾似乎有同源关系。古代朝鲜半岛和现代日本的长尾鸡,也说不定是凤凰的原型。美洲的火鸡、雷鸟,可能也是凤凰图腾的来源之一。
家鸡是从东亚西传的。一直到大西洋沿岸,而高卢人,名称在拉丁语中与“鸡”意思相同(类似突厥与火鸡的关系,二传手成了名词的所有者,三传手都不知所谓了)。“高卢”与“皋兰、葛卢、葛逻禄、楼兰、仡佬”很可能是同源词,这些词与汉语“旮旯”是同源词,“旮旯”就是太阳——十日升降的会意嘛(雄鸡司晨,十日轮次升降,一上九下——旯,日落后一下九上——旮,当然很快在次日凌晨重新排列为“旯”的状态)。西方属金,金曰从辛,旦复旦兮,每一天太阳都像是新的,熔金也类似之。故太阳又有金乌一说,而金鸡报晓也是情理之中。也无怪乎西方昴宿跟鸡有关联。


不管鸡生蛋,还是蛋生鸡。基督教跟鸡的关系也是很亲密的。房伟《中西鸡文化之类同——中西文化中对鸡所赋予的神圣意义及崇拜》,在《旧约•约伯记》里有这样一句话:“谁把耶和华的聪明给了雄鸡? ”岛夷把鸡传遍世界各地,《水上使徒行传》基督求道,大概是把学到的“弥赛亚——弥勒”仪轨引入了犹太教,又把鸡足山当做自己的教名,乃有了基督教。《史记·天官书》云:“曰髦头,胡星也,为白衣会。”不论东胡(高丽)、西胡,都有尚白传统。
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