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蓝海人类学在线 Ryan WEI's Forum of Anthropology

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Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt: Further discussion

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发表于 2018-10-10 11:22 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
Abstract
Schuenemann et al.1 seemingly suggest, based largely on the results of an ancient DNA study of later period remains from northern Egypt, that the ‘ancient Egyptians’ (AE) as an entity came from Asia (the Near East, NE), and that modern Egyptians “received additional sub-Saharan African (SSA) admixtures in recent times” after the latest period of the pharaonic era due to the “trans-Saharan slave trade and Islamic expansion.” In spite of the implied generalization about ‘origins’ the authors do offer the caveat that their findings may have been different if samples had been used from southern Egypt, and this is a significant admission. Their conclusions deserve further discussion from multiple perspectives which cannot be fully developed due to space limitations.
There are alternative interpretations of the results but which were not presented as is traditionally done, with the exception of the admission that results from southern Egyptians may have been different. The alternative interpretations involve three major considerations: 1) sampling and methodology, 2) historiography and 3) definitions as they relate to populations, origins and evolution.

https://osf.io/ecwf3/
发表于 2018-10-10 20:56 | 显示全部楼层
文中提及的著名的Amarna王室成员以及拉美西斯三世的E1b1a到底是非洲类型还是亚欧类型,本次团队就 STRs用 popAffiliator1方法做了分析,明显偏向于北非类型,而不是欧洲比较低频的类型,更不是希特勒家族的欧洲E1b1b1类型。   正如本次作者团队所言,最早的E1b1b1发现于北非而不是欧洲或西亚,至今仍然在北非与东非保持惊人的高频,尽管在西亚与中南欧亦有比较瞩目的频度(在中国也有极低的频度,比如本坛的某坛友以及传闻中的前总理家族,可能夏朝文明就是他们的先祖‘带来的’,尽管他们不是天空Q,呵呵)

所以我一再强调,与E1b1高度相关的basal Eurasian,其实更准确地说,应称为basal Asia-African或basal Afro-Asian

     
发表于 2018-10-10 20:18 | 显示全部楼层
关于Schuenemann团队2017年对北部埃及某贵族古墓群的检测研究报告,当时本坛亦有及时转发,并引发热烈讨论。记得这个thread是saha建起的,现在已经被删无法回顾了。

    大体而言,本次专业团队对Schuenemann团队文章结论的反驳,与当时本坛几个坛友包括我的意见基本一致,现在不妨重温一下:
(先转发本次Jean-Philippe Gourdine团队的反驳意见如下)
●All of the samples are from the northern half of Egypt, from one nome which is 2.4% (1/42) of AE nomes. Ancient Egyptian culture originated southern Upper Egypt2.●The socio-cultural dynamics are not fully considered: the information on the origin and social status is incomplete, or unknowable in fact.(这个当时我分析极有可能是希腊裔,并列举了一些史学资料) The mummies are clearly assumed to be representative of the local population based on an incomplete archaeological report, in spite of the historical information provided about northern Egypt’s interaction with the Near East since the Predynastic, and the known settlements of Greeks, and others, in northern Egypt in later periods.   (看来本次Jean-Philippe Gourdine团队对古埃及史料了解有限,事实上,希腊人入主上古埃及在托勒密时代之前就有,不过是麻木留客式的)

●The timeline is not representative of AE history ~ 3,000 years is missing (e.g. Predynastic, Early Dynastic, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom2).
●The samples cannot be convincingly said to represent true breeding populations or those that truly integrate historical information.

●The authors use Bayesian reconstruction of population size changes through time with BEAST, for which there is generally a discrepancy between the marginal prior and the original prior distribution. The available information on the comparison between original and marginal priors, and on prior and posterior distributions, does not take into account possible population substructure. (这个我认为关系不是很重要)

●Sex-biased sampling (mtDNA) cannot recover population demography of the whole country unless the sample size is large enough and representative in terms of chronology, regional variation, “ethnicities” (including the foreign presence), class and geography. It suffers from many biases that can affect the assessment of the effective population size: population size changes, mutation bias, and natural selection.

●The whole genome sample size is too small (n=3) to accurately permit a discussion of all Egyptian population history from north to south.(这个当时本坛亦有讨论)

2) Historiography and misinterpretation
●The authors do not consider explanations based on historical narrative, although they present historical information. NE input in AE could also be explained by old mercantile relationships with Lower Egypt (e.g. Maadi-Buto complex ~4,000 BC3), Egyptianized Asiatic rulers and migrants (e.g. Hyksos ~1,650 BC), NE prisoners of war (e.g. from Thutmose III’s military campaign in NE ~ 1,490 BC), from diplomatic marriages2 (e.g. Amenhotep III and Mitanni princess, Gilukhipa ~ 1,380 BC), etc. (这个是有道理的,当时本坛亦有论述,比如古埃及王朝长期存在的与西亚王室的联姻)
发表于 2018-10-12 07:37 | 显示全部楼层
古今埃及以及中东北非人群的ADM检测结果:

发表于 2018-10-12 08:41 | 显示全部楼层
Note 6: Y-chromosomal & phenotypic analysis
王传超, Alexander Peltzer

The current distribution of E1b1b1 in North Africa could also be caused by the
back migration from the Near East to Africa that have already been proposed by
several authors (77-79). The high frequencies of haplogroup R1-M173 in
Cameroon also supported the back migration from Eurasia to Africa (80). Since
it’s still unclear whether E1b1b evolved in Northeast Africa or the Near East, we
were deciding against attempting to conclude whether the two haplogroups
provide information about different paternal origin information in our three
Mummy samples.

For our phenotypic analysis, we investigated a set of SNPs thought to be affected
by selection in our samples. Only high-quality (q > 30) bases were counted. We
were able to find derived alleles for the genes SLC24A5 (rs1426654), which are
known to be responsible for lighter skin pigmentation in JK2888 and JK2911.
Our further tests whether the genes SLC45A2 (rs16891982), LCT (rs4988235),
EDAR (rs3827760) and HERC2 (rs12913832) revealed no derived alleles for
both JK2888 and JK2911. For JK2134, no sufficient coverage after quality
filtering was given at the specific sites, which is why the analysis revealed no
further clues (see Supplementary Table 6 for details). LCT is responsible for
lactase persistence in Europe (81, 82). The SNPs at SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 are
responsible for lighter skin pigmentation (83). The SNP at EDAR affects tooth
morphology and hair thickness (84, 85). The SNP at HERC2 is the primary
determinant of light eye colour in present-day Europeans (86, 87).
发表于 2018-10-12 14:08 | 显示全部楼层
上面的常染图中可以看出伊朗农夫(淡蓝色)的扩张历程。Levant指近东地区,叙利亚周边。Natufian是9000年前近东地区的文化。

Natufian和Levant新石器时期的样本几乎没有伊朗成分,而在Levant青铜时期的样本中,伊朗成分出现了,古埃及的三个样本类似。在现代的约旦等近东国家样本中,伊朗农夫成分更重。

如果存在文明使者,那也似乎是伊朗农夫。
发表于 2018-10-12 14:52 | 显示全部楼层
w_howard 发表于 2018-10-12 14:08
上面的常染图中可以看出伊朗农夫(淡蓝色)的扩张历程。Levant指近东地区,叙利亚周边。Natufian是9000年前 ...

可能是接力式的,最后一棒应该还是黎凡特农夫。当然,不排除有小亚西部的‘流窜犯’,正如史料中的记载~
发表于 2018-10-12 22:27 | 显示全部楼层
这个四面扩张的伊朗农夫(成分),让人联想到大名鼎鼎的苏美尔人!
发表于 2018-10-12 23:36 | 显示全部楼层
苏美尔可能是触发伊朗农夫北扩的主要因素之一,不过应该没有直接参与~
发表于 2018-10-15 08:22 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 imvivi001 于 2018-10-15 09:09 编辑

For our phenotypic analysis, we investigated a set of SNPs thought to be affected
by selection in our samples. Only high-quality (q > 30) bases were counted.

    We were able to find derived alleles for the genes SLC24A5 (rs1426654), which are
known to be responsible for lighter skin pigmentation in JK2888 and JK2911.

Our further tests whether the genes SLC45A2 (rs16891982), LCT (rs4988235),
EDAR (rs3827760) and HERC2 (rs12913832) revealed no derived alleles for
both JK2888 and JK2911. For JK2134, no sufficient coverage after quality
filtering was given at the specific sites, which is why the analysis revealed no
further clues (see Supplementary Table 6 for details).
LCT is responsible for lactase persistence in Europe (81, 82).
The SNPs at SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 are responsible for lighter skin pigmentation (83).
The SNP at EDAR affects tooth morphology and hair thickness (84, 85).
The SNP at HERC2 is the primary determinant of light eye colour in present-day Europeans (86, 87).
--------------

单独看 SLC24A5 locus的 rs1426654恐怕无法说明问题,因为我之前已经初步证明rs1426654与basal E.的亚非语人群有关。另外从这个古埃及人的HERC2来看,似乎与新石器以及青铜时期的高纬度地区欧洲人关联性不大。 因此,即便是这个古埃及时期来自曾经被异族统治的下埃及地区的古埃及人偏北,他的北族成分应该也不是来自印欧人,而是来自西亚~
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