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http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21322/abstract
Moreover, individuals buried in one sector of the necropolis were differentiated from other sectors on the basis of nonmetric data. Th ...
sahaliyan 发表于 2010-10-3 21:41
显然没好好看文献。
匈奴是有10余万落自称鲜卑,我以为今天蒙古的R1a,N1c,部分O3,极少数C3可能与匈奴有关,但另一方面匈奴自称鲜卑,但是你要知道在部族上与鲜卑起源部族依然有区别,比如宇文鲜卑。后来铁勒人壮大,突厥人崛起,最后 ...
sahaliyan 发表于 2010-10-3 21:47
没有证据支持种系的变化。
本帖最后由 Yungsiyebu 于 2010-10-3 21:59 编辑
没有任何证据支持父系没有变化
sahaliyan 发表于 2010-10-3 21:53
所以你说的东西都没有证据支持,然而,种系的延续性无疑是确实的。

至于鲜卑父胡母的传说,显然鲜卑aDNA的研究已经否则这种可能性。一群鲜卑男性进入漠北然后赶走了匈奴男人,是相当的融合模式。
一群鲜卑男性进入漠北然后赶走了匈奴男人

你这句话错了,匈奴男人也被融合了,但在生殖优势上显然不可能超过征服者,经过几代人,征服者的父系就会占据优势。所以匈奴的Y-DNA自然留了下来,但是却不可能再占据优 ...
sahaliyan 发表于 2010-10-3 22:06
没有证据支持。
也没有证据支持你的观点,更何况你的观点不符合逻辑
sahaliyan 发表于 2010-10-3 22:19
10万帐匈奴男人都走了,女人留下符合逻辑?

这个数目对比漠北就是绝对主体了,而呼伦贝尔全部移过来也没没几个人。
我不是说了,匈奴男人也被融合了吗?但是你觉得拥有权势,拥有财富的人更有生殖优势,还是平民和奴隶更有优势?鲜卑之后崛起的也不是匈奴,而是痰厥人和铁勒人,最后又是室韦-鞑靼,可别忘了只有几百年历史的单倍群 ...
sahaliyan 发表于 2010-10-3 22:28
想当然,没有依据的东西不多谈。
10万帐匈奴男人都走了,女人留下符合逻辑?

这个数目对比漠北就是绝对主体了,而呼伦贝尔全部移过来也没没几个人。
Yungsiyebu 发表于 2010-10-3 22:24
--------------------------------------------------------------
            10万帐? 你指的是北匈奴吧,据我所知,南匈奴还是基本留在内蒙地区啊,而原始鲜卑正是和他们融合的啊
物格而后知至,知至而后意诚,意诚而后心正,心正而后身修,身修而后家齐,家齐而后国治,国治而后天下平...
我自己用我手裏的樣本數據對了一下(也就是說主要參考了漢人,北方、西方少數民族的不多),沒參考Grigoriev和你們各位的工作,匹配結果如下:

A組:
#25A:N1或O3-M117,難說
#26:C3*
#27:C3*或C3d
#28:C3
#32A:(位點太少,匹配的什麽都有)
#36:D1a*

C組:
#46、47、50、52、53、54:C3*(挺接近星簇)

B組:
#57、58:C3*
#65:R1a1a
#69、76:N1c1
#70、72、73:R1a1a
#81:N
#84.1:N1c1
#84bis:?(位點少但無匹配)
#88、94:?(沒特別近的)
#92:N1
#95:O3-M117

很抱歉,因爲原始數據沒有公佈,無法覈對,至少無法公開覈對。
2

评分次数

目前在復旦已經停止對外的收費服務,只做科硏項目。測試可以找源基因 www.yoogene.com 。
新浪微博@polyhedron
微信公衆号fenzirenleixue
还可能有D1,赞,还没汇总D1的数据,以后关注一下。
老永,咱們能不能把額金河的東西合併一下兒啊?
目前在復旦已經停止對外的收費服務,只做科硏項目。測試可以找源基因 www.yoogene.com 。
新浪微博@polyhedron
微信公衆号fenzirenleixue
老永,咱們能不能把額金河的東西合併一下兒啊?
polyhedron 发表于 2010-11-26 19:30
本来是计划给每个样本单开一个帖子,结果经慎重考虑,还是合并一个吧;PP

说句实在的,古代y虽然难测(我问了一下绳纹aDNA才知道y是测了但没成功),这些年古代aDNA还真是出来不少,可惜难得有测str的(尽管成功率比snp更高),文献出来一看,测得不细,读一遍索然无味也就完了。结果这篇03年的老文献,现代人群数据新增一点,就有冲动重新比对一下str,所以,建议再测一定顺便把str也测一下,让票友们有点聊资。
新技术方案尝试:低覆盖全基因组,最低成本深度解析父系源流,略有成效,大家一起摸索。微博@基因人王冰 QQ群:387100816。
本帖最后由 Yungsiyebu 于 2011-6-6 01:14 编辑

加入点数据,再看一下95号疑似M117+的匹配情况。
额金河95号M117+.jpg
额金河95号M117+ 2.jpg
额金河95号M117+ 3.jpg
新技术方案尝试:低覆盖全基因组,最低成本深度解析父系源流,略有成效,大家一起摸索。微博@基因人王冰 QQ群:387100816。
看来看去,还是更倾向于萨同学的判断...;PP
imvivi001 发表于 2010-10-3 21:21
嗯,我也觉得更靠谱……
看到这里大家争论的比较热烈,偶然想起很久前看到一篇国外的文献,转帖以下仅供参考……

Hunnic and Sakha Y-DNA
Presence of Tat-C in Ancient Mongolia
International Congress Series Volume 1261, April 2004, Pages 325-327 by C. Keyser-Tracqui et al

Results

It has been suggested that the Y-chromosomal T→C transition arose in Mongolia ~2400–4000 years ago. To test this hypothesis, we screened 2300-year-old Mongolian male specimens and ancient Yakut male specimens for this Y-chromosomal marker. Our results demonstrate that the mutation was present in Asia 2300 years ago.

In the past few years, a large number of polymorphic markers have been identified on the Y chromosome. Among these is the T→C transition (locus RBF5) reported by Zerjal et al. [1] and later called the Tat-polymorphism. The C allele of this biallelic marker has so far been observed only in populations from Asia and northern Europe. It reaches its highest frequency in Yakuts, Buryats, northeastern Siberian populations and Finns (Table 1).

In this study, we screened ancient Mongolian samples from the Egyin Gol necropolis for the Tat marker. The Egyin Gol necropolis, located in northern Mongolia, is ~2300 years old and belongs to the Xiongnu (i.e. Xwn = Hun) culture [3]. In addition, we genotyped the T→C mutation in ancient Yakut specimens excavated at two sites in the Sakha Republic (Yakutia) [4].

All of the seven ancient Yakut individuals tested showed the C allele, confirming that the mutation occurred most probably before their migration from southern regions. Concerning the Xiongnu people, two of them harboured the mutation suggesting that the Tat polymorphism already existed in Mongolia 2300 years ago.

In conclusion, our study showed that the C allele was present in parent populations to the modern inhabitants of Mongolia or Yakutia, suggesting that the mutation may have arisen in Mongolia more than 2400 years ago [1]. Moreover, our work suggests that the Xiongnu tribe under study may have been composed of some of the ancestors of the present-day Yakut population.

意思大概是说所研究的这一小部分匈奴更可能与今天的雅库特人共租。
还有关于“东部匈奴”更多的描述——

Nuclear and Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of a 2,000-Year-Old Necropolis in the Egyin Gol Valley of Mongolia


Results
mtDNA Analysis

... Although the mtDNA sequences obtained could not be assigned with certainty to mtDNA haplogroups (since they encompassed only the HVI of the control region), three (A, C, and D) of the four major haplogroups observed in Native American (Torroni et al. 1993) and Siberian (Starikovskaya et al. 1998; Schurr et al. 1999) populations were detected in the ancient samples tested (with haplogroup D being the most prevalent). A few sequences belonging to subclusters B4b, D5 or D5a, F1b, J1, G2a, U2 or U5a1a and some that probably belonged to cluster M were also observed (Richards et al. 2000; Yao et al. 2002). No member of the major European cluster H, which occurs in >40% of most European populations (Richards et al. 1996) was found. Interestingly, some of the haplotypes reported here are similar to those found in previous studies of the area (Kolman et al. 1996; Comas et al. 1998).

Discussion

... A majority (89%) of the Eastern Huns' sequences can be classified as belonging to an Asian haplogroup (A, B4b, C, D4, D5 or D5a, or F1b), and nearly 11% belong to European haplogroups (U2, U5a1a, and J1). This finding indicates that the contacts between European and Asian populations were anterior to the Eastern Huns' culture, and it confirms results reported for two samples from an early 3rd century BC Scytho-Siberian population (Clisson et al. 2002).

     The genetic data obtained in the present study, in addition to the topographical and radiocarbon data, suggested hypotheses concerning the social history of the necropolis. Around the 3rd century BC, the grave of an adult male (grave 28) had been dug on the southern part of the Egyin Gol valley (A sector). At a short distance from him, a privileged man was also buried (grave 27), as were other individuals, including those found in double graves (graves 32/32A, 33/33A, 37/37A, and 38/38A). Some of these surrounding graves could be sacrificial burials, as has been reported elsewhere for one of them (Murail et al. 2000). This tradition of having double graves near an opulent one in cemeteries containing individuals of high social class is well documented, notably in the Sakka (normally spelled Saka in English, a general endoethnonym of the eastern Scythians  - Translator's Note) (another group of nomadic people of the Eurasian steppes) and the Pazyryk cultures (Francfort et al. 2000). This ritual, at the first developmental step of the cemetery, suggests that the cultural influence of the "old Scythian spirit" was already present in some nomadic families at the beginning of the Eastern Huns empire. ...

引用地址——http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/ ... rnHunGeneticsEn.htm
重新看了韩国人关于Duurlig Nars匈奴墓地的检测结果论文,那个C3是甲字型大墓里的样本,那个R1a则是长方形墓的样本,明显前者是个贵族,已知真正的匈奴贵族大墓都是甲字型结构,可惜他们测的太粗,没区分下游,也没给STR。
一群鲜卑男性进入漠北然后赶走了匈奴男人

你这句话错了,匈奴男人也被融合了,但在生殖优势上显然不可能超过征服者,经过几代人,征服者的父系就会占据优势。所以匈奴的Y-DNA自然留了下来,但是却不可能再占据优 ...
sahaliyan 发表于 2010-10-3 22:06
萨哈作为对内亚史非常有研究的人,在这里说了外行话啊
10余万落几十万匈奴人自称鲜卑的历史,要按照草原政治习俗推演,他们的部落结构不可能消融,他们的领导阶层在大鲜卑联盟里也同样拥有联盟者应有的位置,他们不是被劫掠为奴隶的人群,而是草原政治的联盟属性。譬如满蒙。
所以匈奴人极可能在漠北依然拥有人口优势,而这种延续最终导致柔然与鲜卑的隔阂与分离。
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