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甘肃从公元前2000年前沙井文化、骟马文化就有蒙古人种北亚类型进入,出现C3也不奇怪。
氐羌人后裔 发表于 2015-1-26 23:48
有点好奇,尽管河西西北端一些地区目前也零散分布着一些蒙古和突厥语族人群(例如现代肃北和阿克塞这些地区的蒙哈人群),这些人群显然是在很晚近的历史时期迁徙过去的,但在更早的时期,比如敦煌汉墓里的人群是否也有一些更早的世居成分?这些世居成分在后世的河西人里能占多大比例呢?(酒泉和张掖谁更“土著”?)

从他们的姓氏(如现代陇北人里的罗、何等)来看,土著显然至今仍占有一定的比例

http://www.ranhaer.com/viewthread.php?tid=20041&page=10#pid282613

唐宋时期敦煌人名探析.pdf (250.85 KB)
(5)、其他少数民族 有相当多的人从姓氏上可以判断出他为哪个民族,如S.2729的
“贺拔坚信”、“贺拔广昙”、“贺拔普照”、“哥舒净智”、“赫连广璨”..
至于甘肃新石器时代的土著,则很难说,目前只有汉代的青海陶家寨可资参考,那也已经是汉代了,但毕竟都属于朱泓先生所谓古西北类型。所以,我的意见是,甘肃可能有N也有O3,不排除还有C*。哈密的C*和N从考古角度来自甘肃河西走廊的证据很多。
氐羌人后裔 发表于 2015-1-26 23:48
记得从一篇有关新疆和中亚地区群体遗传结构的paper中看到,他们有少许来自南亚次大陆的常染成分,这些C*会不会与此类成分有关呢?哈密的C*也许不是或至少不全是来自内地吧?
大师们在讨论O1对应良渚或者越人或者南岛的时候有没有考虑过文化方面的因素,良渚玉文化非常发达,而被认为是百越及其后裔的古代、现代的各个族群,玉文化貌似不怎样啊,这到底是神马回事?
welson 发表于 2015-1-27 09:04
别扯了,玉不是哪里都能挖到的。良渚的地方玉现在仅在浙江天目山一带有少量矿脉被发现。而且考古学上视“玉石文化”为“青铜文化”的替代品,因为浙江无铜和锡出产。
如果说到整个中国,玉(矿物学上以透闪石或蛇纹石成分来定义)的产地也十分稀少,如何可能到处都能发展发达的玉文化呢?懂吗?
1

评分次数

  • Vietschlinger

NRY: O2a1c1a1a1a1a1a1-002611,F11,F17,F856,F1495(源自粤西云浮)
mtDNA:B4d1(源自浙北慈溪)
百越人的人类学文集 http://blog.sina.com.cn/baiyueren
185# baiyueren  
O1并不仅仅是越人。O1下的支系F78按照复旦的猜想应该属于大禹,这和夏文化中有不少来自良渚文化的因素也是合拍的。至于F78下的支系F492,现在看来在同种测量标准下超过O3任何一个支系,有可能属于 ...
wolfgang 发表于 2015-1-27 09:54
现在已知有良渚文化器因素的周边文化太多了,甚至包括整个长江流域的新石器文化(比如湖北屈家岭、四川三星堆文化)。是不死可以就此得出结论所有具备一些良渚文化因素的文化都有O1存在呢?
NRY: O2a1c1a1a1a1a1a1-002611,F11,F17,F856,F1495(源自粤西云浮)
mtDNA:B4d1(源自浙北慈溪)
百越人的人类学文集 http://blog.sina.com.cn/baiyueren
196#welson   198#wolfgang
老是发表这种无立论基础的猜想性质的一句话跟帖有意思吗?
NRY: O2a1c1a1a1a1a1a1-002611,F11,F17,F856,F1495(源自粤西云浮)
mtDNA:B4d1(源自浙北慈溪)
百越人的人类学文集 http://blog.sina.com.cn/baiyueren
202# baiyueren
替代品??

怎么解释商周乃至秦汉时期的玉文化?
202# baiyueren  
替代品??
怎么解释商周乃至秦汉时期的玉文化?
welson 发表于 2015-1-27 12:21
商代以后的用玉绝大部分都是和田玉,从新疆不远万里弄来的,你说能随便当青铜使吗?
NRY: O2a1c1a1a1a1a1a1-002611,F11,F17,F856,F1495(源自粤西云浮)
mtDNA:B4d1(源自浙北慈溪)
百越人的人类学文集 http://blog.sina.com.cn/baiyueren
刚才有口误,屈家岭文化和石家河有百越文化的因素,比如石锛、石铲、石钺、玉璜等出现。
屈家岭1.jpg
屈家岭2.jpg
屈家岭3.jpg
石家河.jpg
NRY: O2a1c1a1a1a1a1a1-002611,F11,F17,F856,F1495(源自粤西云浮)
mtDNA:B4d1(源自浙北慈溪)
百越人的人类学文集 http://blog.sina.com.cn/baiyueren
203# baiyueren 我觉得就是猜想,复旦的也比你的要可靠的多。
氐羌兄弟的G有進一步細測了嗎?是和歐洲新石器農民有關,還是格魯吉亞人的遠親呢?
natsuya 发表于 2015-1-26 23:56
细测了,我记得跟撒丁岛的比较像,呵呵,跟格鲁吉亚远了。我的那一支是比较稀少的一支,记得是属于L141下面的一支L177,后来L177这个点不稳定就移走了。L141下面主流的是P303那一支,我不是。
2

评分次数

细测了,我记得跟撒丁岛的比较像,呵呵,跟格鲁吉亚远了。我的那一支是比较稀少的一支,记得是属于L141下面的一支L177,后来L177这个点不稳定就移走了。L141下面主流的是P303那一支,我不是。
氐羌人后裔 发表于 2015-1-28 01:30
引用維基百科有關G2a3b-L141+的資料:

G2a3b (L141+)
The SNP that defines this group was identified only in mid-2009 at Family Tree DNA. Almost all L141+ men belong to L141 subgroups. Samples from persons with British Isles, Sicilian and Turkish ancestry have been identified. L141+ persons who do not belong to any L141 subgroup so far have the value of 11 at STR marker DYS490 — a finding rare in other G categories. The L141 mutation is found on the Y chromosome at 2948607. The L141 mutation involves an insertion.[15]


G2a3b1 (P303+ or S135+) and its subgroups
Main article: Haplogroup G-P303
The G2a3b1 definable subgroups are heavily concentrated throughout Europe west of the Black Sea and Russia where G2a3b1 is often in the majority among G persons. Small percentages of G2a3b1 are found primarily in the area encompassed by Turkey, the Caucasus countries, Iran and the Middle East where the G2a3b1 SNP may have originated. G2a3b1 is also found in India. The great majority of P303+ men belong to one of its subgroups.

The largest G2a3b1 subgroup based on available samples is one in which almost all persons have the value of 13 at STR marker DYS388. The L497 SNP (G2a3b1a2) encompasses these men, but most men L497 men belong to its subgroup Z725. There are additional subgroups of DYS388=13 men characterized by the presence of specific SNPs or uncommon STR marker oddities. Members of this group have been found in Europe and the Middle East.[16]


The next largest G2a3b1 subgroup is characterized by the presence of the U1 mutation (G2a3b1a1) But a high percentage of U1+ men belong to its two subgroups, L13/S13 (G2a3b1a1a)and Z1266 (G2a3b1a1b). The L13 subgroup is most common in north central Europe, and Z1266 is most common in the western Caucasus Mountains.


The final major subgroup is characterized by presence of the Z1903 SNP and so far by the value of 9 at marker DYS568. A high percentage of Z1903+ men belong to its subgroup, Z724. The Z724 subgroup contains a further large subgroup consisting overwhelmingly of Ashkenazi Jews.


The highest percentage of G2a3b1 persons in a discrete population so far described is on the island of Ibiza off the eastern Spanish coast. This group has been linked with the Crypto-Jewish population which fled to the island during the time of the Spanish Inquisition, of which a significant portion are identifiable as DYS388=13 persons.[17]



G2a3b2 (L177+)
This G2a3b2 group is certainly smaller in numbers of men included than G2a3b1, but only a small amount of testing has occurred for the L177 mutations. So far the men positive for this have listed Irish, English, Dutch, Lebanese and Turkish (Armenian surname) ancestry. Several L177 subgroups based on shared STR marker oddities exist.

The number of STR marker values separating men in this group suggest G2a3b2 is a relatively old group despite the small number of men involved.[18] The mutations involved are complicated and difficult to interpret. The L177.1 component is found at Y chromosome position 23397163; L177.2 at 25030912; L177.3 at 25750264.[19] This SNP was first identified at Family Tree DNA in 2009.
Y染色體:O3 M134+ M117-
mtDNA:D5a2
G單倍群系統樹、G單倍群頻率分佈圖、歐洲農業擴散年代圖。
G2a-tree.gif
Haplogroup_G2a.gif
Europe-diffusion-farming.gif
1

评分次数

Y染色體:O3 M134+ M117-
mtDNA:D5a2
有關氐羌兄G2a3b-L141+的介紹。

文章來源:http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_G2a_Y-DNA.shtml

Geographic distribution

Nowadays haplogroup G is found all the way from Western Europe and Northwest Africa to Central Asia, India and East Africa, although everywhere at low frequencies (generally between 1 and 10% of the population). The only exceptions are the Caucasus region, central and southern Italy and Sardinia, where frequencies typically range from 15% to 30% of male lineages.

Most Europeans belong to the G2a subclade, and most northern and Western Europeans more specifically to G2a-L141.1(or to a lower extend G2a-M406). About all G2b (L72+, formerly G2c) Europeans are Ashkenazi Jews. G2b has also been found around Afghanistan, probably as an offshoot of Neolithic farmers from the Levant.

Haplogroup G1 is found predominantly in Iran, but is also found in the Levant, among Ashkenazi Jews, and Central Asia (notably in Kazakhstan).

G2a makes up 5 to 10% of the population of Mediterranean Europe, but is fairly rare in Northern Europe. The only places where haplogroup G2 exceeds 10% of the population in Europe are Cantabria, central and southern Italy (esp. in the Apennines), Sardinia, northern Greece (Thessaly) and Crete - all mountainous and relatively isolated regions. Other regions with frequencies approaching the 10% include Asturias in northern Spain, Auvergne in central France, Switzerland, Sicily, the Aegean Islands, and Cyprus.

G2a3b-L141.1, the Indo-European branch of G2a

Contrarily to other branches of G2a, which are more prevalent in mountainous areas, G2a3b (L141.1), and particularly the G2a3b1 (P303) subclade, is found uniformly throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b and its subclades are also found in eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, Central Asia and throughout India, especially among the upper castes, who represent the descendants of the Bronze Age Indo-European invaders. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.

The homeland of R1b1a (P297) and Pre-Proto-Indo-European speakers is presumed to have been situated in eastern Anatolia and/or the North Caucasus. The Caucasus itself is a hotspot of haplogroup G. Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that a minority of Caucasian men belonging to haplogroup G (and perhaps also J2b) integrated the R1b community that crossed the Caucasus and established themselves on the northern and eastern shores of the Black Sea sometime between 7,000 and 4,500 BCE.

An alternative theory is that G2a3 (L30) came from Anatolia to eastern and Central Europe during the Neolithic (a fact proven by ancient DNA test). Once in Southeast Europe it split in two branches: G2a3a, who followed the Danube to Central Europe (LBK), and G2a3b, who migrated east to the Pontic Steppe and brought agriculture to the region. G2a3b would have mixed with the indigenous R1a people, then with R1b newcomers during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age. By the time the Proto-Indo-Europeans started their massive expansion, G2a3b men (who apparently belonged overwhelmingly to G2a3b1 and its subclades) would have joined R1b-M269/L23 in the invasion of Old Europe from 4200 BCE (=> see R1b history). G2a3a would have been among the conquered populations of Old Europe, seeking refuge in mountainous areas.

Roman redistribution

By the Iron Age, the G2a population in most of Europe had been decimated by the Indo-European invasions, followed by Celtic warfare. G2a sought refuge from the invaders in the mountains, and like today, reached maximum frequencies in Italy (Apennines, Sardinia) and in the Alps.

The ancient Latins and Romans descend from the Italic tribes who invaded the Italian peninsula from 1200 BCE. They seem to have belonged primarily to haplogroup R1b-U152 (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), but to have carried a substantial minority of G2a3b (L141.1) lineages, especially the U1 and L497 subclades. The Latin homeland in central Italy is one of the hotspots for haplogroup G2a in Europe today. The high level in G2a in the Latium might be due to the dual presence of Indo-European G2a3b and of earlier Neolithic lineages who descended from the Apennines to live in Rome after being absorbed by the Roman civilisation.

If the ancient Romans and other Romanised peoples from the Italian peninsula had any genetic impact on other parts of the Roman Empire (as they should have), they certainly contributed to a moderate increase of G2a lineages (in addition to R1b-U152 and J2) within the borders of the empire. Indeed, the frequency of haplogroup G decreases with the distance from the boundaries of the empire. Haplogroup G is extremely rare Nordic and Baltic countries nowadays, despite the fact that agriculture reached those regions around the same time as Britain or Ireland. Another reason could be that the forested lowlands of northern Germany, Poland and the Baltic were too poor in metals and did not have attract as many Bronze-Age workers from the Caucasus (=> see Metal-mining and stockbreeding explain R1b dominance in Atlantic fringe). Northeast Europe also has a relatively low percentage of haplogroup R1b, which further reinforces the hypothesis that the two haplogroups spread together during the Bronze Age.
Y染色體:O3 M134+ M117-
mtDNA:D5a2
细测了,我记得跟撒丁岛的比较像,呵呵,跟格鲁吉亚远了。我的那一支是比较稀少的一支,记得是属于L141下面的一支L177,后来L177这个点不稳定就移走了。L141下面主流的是P303那一支,我不是。
氐羌人后裔 发表于 2015-1-28 01:30
看来以前说近U1还是不准,U1在P303下游:

http://www.ranhaer.com/viewthread.php?tid=23963&extra=&page=2

只说对了P15+。可测一下F1760,估计是

牛哥有时间可以走访一下那例岸兜村丁氏,是近亲的可以联宗一下
G單倍群系統樹、G單倍群頻率分佈圖、歐洲農業擴散年代圖。
natsuya 发表于 2015-1-28 16:15
冰人Ötzi 的Y-DNA 属于

ISOGG的G2a2b单倍群

(G-L91),与欧洲的主流G类型不同,不过令人惊奇的是,

Ötzi类型在他死去的不远处tyrol地区依然存在,再次显示进入青铜时代后欧洲血统的延续性~~

物格而后知至,知至而后意诚,意诚而后心正,心正而后身修,身修而后家齐,家齐而后国治,国治而后天下平...
冰人Ötzi 的Y-DNA 属于ISOGG的G2a2b单倍群 (G-L91),与欧洲的主流G类型不同,不过令人惊奇的是,Ötzi类型在他死去的不远处tyrol地区依然存在,再次显示进入青铜时代后欧洲血统的延续性~~
imvivi001 发表于 2015-1-28 23:19
Wikipedia的資料:In western Austria, in theTirol (Tyrol) the G percentage can reach 40% or more (Ötzi also had it).
Y染色體:O3 M134+ M117-
mtDNA:D5a2
...
篇考古論文提出,島嶼東南亞曾經有兩波來自不同方向的新石器人群。Neolithic I來自中國南部,經過越南、泰國,傳播至馬來亞、婆羅洲、印尼群島的時間比較早,已經有磨製石器和陶器,但是沒有真正意義上的農業,Higham認為Neolithic I可能和南亞語族有關係。再來是Neolithic II,來自台灣經過菲律賓到印尼,發生的時間比較晚,這就是南島語族的南向擴張,他們帶來真正的農業。

natsuya 发表于 2015-1-26 14:52
目前来看,早期岛屿东南亚与东部的巴布亚地区,即使已经发展出农业,估计也是一种相对原始的农业,可能如我之前推测的,因为种植压力不大,缺乏北部地区因为压力而带来的动力,因此在北部的东南沿海与台湾的农业人群面前,估计没有竞争优势…
物格而后知至,知至而后意诚,意诚而后心正,心正而后身修,身修而后家齐,家齐而后国治,国治而后天下平...
目前来看F492的STR都是在中心值的五步内,如果F492不是3千多年那么O3三大簇的年龄估计还要涨不少啊。F492不管是否对应越人的扩张也是3千多年起源的中国南北第一大簇。
奋斗 发表于 2015-1-26 19:18
F492的str的确具有一些特殊性,可能与它的诞生年龄以及相对有限的分布区域有关~
物格而后知至,知至而后意诚,意诚而后心正,心正而后身修,身修而后家齐,家齐而后国治,国治而后天下平...
   F492的str的确具有一些特殊性,可能与它的诞生年龄以及相对有限的分布区域有关~
imvivi001 发表于 2017-4-15 14:27
目前来看从17至23-STR是无法区分F81下游的F81*和F492的,所以说是F81可靠点。按目前微基因公布分享的F81有115人,F81*是27人,F492是88人,按F81内部比例来算是F81*占比是23.5%,F492占比是76.5%.
   按F81最近共祖4300年来算分布还是很广的,南边的越南和北边的韩国日本多多少少也有分布的,南边少数民族目前来看壮族也有一定分布比例接近3%吧,西北回族比例也是有3.5%左右,东北满族内蒙古蒙古族也是3.5%左右。按F81相关人口上亿来算,越南韩日加壮回满蒙的F81占F81内部总比例的4%-5%左右,其他95%左右的F81都是在汉族。
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