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两个越南M120的样本共祖时间是3200年
有C3*和M120,没有O,更可能是从西伯利亚到的美洲吧
风虎云龙 发表于 2015-4-7 09:56
如果这个是真的,那云老师的O3土著论又悬了~
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我从来没有讲过O3是西伯利亚旧石器时代土著。
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修正一下,计算的M120下秘鲁和越南支系分化年龄是7100年。
风虎云龙 发表于 2015-4-7 11:05
用snp还是str算的?
O3a3c* (M134+, M117-)
用snp还是str算的?
hercules 发表于 2015-4-7 21:39
snp
Insights into the origin of rare haplogroup C3* Y chromosomes in South America from high-density autosomal SNP genotyping

最近搜薛雅丽文章时,才注意到这篇~

因为1984已经发过所以不重发了
snelheid 发表于 2015-4-7 09:22
文章很有趣,不过我觉得这类文章都有模型简单的毛病。比如人类最初进入美洲就有至少两批不同的人群,一群接近日本Ainu,一群现代美洲人。我猜C3*就是前一批,由于来得早,结果被裹挟在迁徙的最前线一直到南美洲。也就是说,其实他们没有经历那么夸张的遗传漂变。
O3a3c* (M134+, M117-)
文章很有趣,不过我觉得这类文章都有模型简单的毛病。比如人类最初进入美洲就有至少两批不同的人群,一群接近日本Ainu,一群现代美洲人。我猜C3*就是前一批,由于来得早,结果被裹挟在迁徙的最前线一直到南美洲。也就 ...
hercules 发表于 2015-4-7 22:03
这就是说他们一直维持着原先在人口中的比例?问题是这些C3*最终的亚型及据此所得的分离时间是否支持他们与阿伊努人有近亲关系(而且老C3跟阿伊努人发生关系是什么时候的事,似乎未见定论)而不是文中所指的elsewhere

而且该文最关键的问题是没法进行纯Y层面的全序测试,所以最后不得不resort to常染SNP分型,而这无异于缘木求鱼且大大增加了推测难度
In this follow-up study, we set out to revisit the three hypotheses for the origin of the C3* Y chromosomes in Ecuador. One possibility would be to sequence the Ecuadorian C3* Y chromosomes, and compare them with existing or additional East Asian C3* chromosome sequences, to determine the divergence time. However, the limited quantity and quality of DNA available did not allow this. We therefore followed another possibility, using genome-wide autosomal SNP genotyping.
其实这个老早也有文章而且同样把年代定得很低,而不是推测为“第一批移民”

http://www.ranhaer.com/thread-25711-1-1.html

Y-chromosomal variation in native South Americans: bright dots on a gray canvas.
M. Nothnagel et al.
While human populations in Europe and Asia have often been reported to reveal a concordance between their extant genetic structure and the prevailing regional pattern of geography and language, such evidence is lacking for native South Americans. In the largest study of South American natives to date, we examined the relationship between Y-chromosomal genotype on the one hand, and male geographic origin and linguistic affiliation on the other. We observed virtually no structure for the extant Y-chromosomal genetic variation of South American males that could sensibly be related to their inter-tribal geographic and linguistic relationships, augmented by locally confined Y-STR autocorrelation. Analysis of repeatedly taken random subsamples from Europe adhering to the same sampling scheme excluded the possibility that this finding was due to our specific scheme. Furthermore, for the first time, we identified a distinct geographical cluster of Y-SNP lineages C-M217 (C3*) in South America, which are virtually absent from North and Central America, but occur at high frequency in Asia. Our data suggest a late introduction of C3* into South America no more than 6,000 years ago and low levels of migration between the ancestor populations of C3* carrier and non-carriers. Our findings are consistent with a rapid peopling of the continent, followed by long periods of isolation in small groups, and highlight the fact that a pronounced correlation between genetic and geographic/cultural structure can only be expected under very specific conditions.
当然这跟此文中的跟秘鲁的不一定是同一波人,但至少可以说明,东亚洲向美洲的早期零星小股移民流是复杂的,至晚至铜石并用期可能还存在。之前我拿藤森说事调侃那谁,大概是把问题简单化了
snelheid 发表于 2015-4-7 09:36
目前越来越多的迹象表明,新旧大陆之间的人员流动一直没有中断,主要的还是零星的。而全新世之前的小规模移民,因为之前的新大陆的人口稀缺,意外的成为“大规模移民”以及奠基者效应~
物格而后知至,知至而后意诚,意诚而后心正,心正而后身修,身修而后家齐,家齐而后国治,国治而后天下平...
兰海版主曾经说过,在南美土著人中还发现过 C1-V20

也许在Q之前,V20先到的美洲也是有可能的。
http://www.ranhaer.org/thread-33528-1-4.html
这个啊,不是早就解决了吗,根本就是近代移民,因此不必讨论了
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