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老外讨论:最久的文明

国外网友关于“史上最久文明”的讨论(龙腾长篇连载1/5)
作者:熊孩子+山间小客发布日期:2011-09-08浏览:加载...
译文简介:
印度朋友说早在5000年前就有了印度国 中国朋友说中国是世界上历史最悠久的,因为他们仍在沿用4000年前的文字和传统 希腊朋友说他们的历史最长久,因为他们仍然在用希腊语。译文来源:
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译:熊孩子+山间小客+trytrytry+Jonathan+duke99+Katherine等
原帖地址:http://archive.worldhistoria.com ... pic13853_page1.html正文翻译:
注:龙腾网的译文,酒红色的字为注释以及引用,蓝色为译文
My Indian friend say there was Indian state since 5000 years ago!
My Chinese friend say China has the world longest continuous history because they still write the same characters and practice many ancient traditions that their ancestors did in 4000 years ago.
My Iranian friend say they had the 1st great empire and was the oldest.
My Greek friend say they had longest history since they still speak and write Greek
....................and many people of different ethnicities claim their culture is greatest living fossil.
Everyone has bias toward their own heritage so it is better to have a poll or serious academic discussion on this issue.
CIA world fact book and many other international organization states China as the world longest living civilization.........but my Indian friend said China was conqueried by Mongols, Turks (???), and Mancurians. And even Mongolians today didnt belive they are part of Chinese history. But, again, if the Macedonians were considered as part of Greek history (Macedonians were considered by ancient Greeks as semi-barbarians), I guess Mongols could be interpreted as "Sinicized" tribe of China.
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com翻译:熊孩子+山间小客+trytrytry+Jonathan+duke99+Katherine等
印度朋友说早在5000年前就有了印度国
中国朋友说中国是世界上历史最悠久的,因为他们仍在沿用4000年前的文字和传统
希腊朋友说他们的历史最长久,因为他们仍然在用希腊语。
还有许多不同种族的人声称,他们的文化是最大的活化石
每个人都会偏爱自己的文化,所以在这一问题上有必要来一次民调或者学术讨论。
CIA的世界史事和其他的国际组织都将中国看做最长久的文明,但我的印度朋友说中国曾经被蒙古人、土耳其人和满洲人占领过。甚至今天的蒙古人从来不认为他们是中国历史的一部分。但是,如果马其顿人被认为是希腊历史的一部分(古希腊人认为马其顿人是半开化的野蛮人)同样蒙古人可以称之为被汉化的部落。
评论翻译:
第一页由熊孩子翻译
Cywr:
I've heard some Jews claim its Judism.
And on it goes.
Everyone wants their's to be the longest living, continiously existing, oldest, whatever, and they all have a carefully designed set of rules to swing it their way. Very predictable and lame.
Civilisation is essentialy a pattern of settlment, i can't think of many that have remianed totaly andf completly unchanged over the millennia. In fact, i can't think of any, peroid.
每个人都希望他们的历史是最长久的,持续不断的和最古老的,无论如何,而且都会仔细设计一套有利于自己(理论)的规则。这套规则可以预期是站不住脚的。
文明实质上是一种当地居民的生活模式,他们当中许多至今还能保留而且千年不变这是不可想象的。事实上,任何历史时期都不一样。
Ginnis:
The Inuits! From the day they passed the Bering strait (some thousand years ago), untill now little have changed in their way of life.
纽因特人就是(这样的)!自从他们通过白令海峡之后(几千年前),直到今天他们的生活方式依然没有多大变化。
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com翻译:熊孩子+山间小客+trytrytry+Jonathan+duke99+Katherine等
Cywr:
If your going to play it that way, they i'd nominate the San of South Africa. Archeological records point to a fairly consistant existance going back 20,000+ years. But even there, we see a few changes as they adopt new technology and techniques.
Of course, they were semi-nomadic. No civis, no civilisation. Don't you just love the Roman world view?
你要这样说,我倒是推荐南非的San族。公认的考古学记录能追溯到20000年以上。但即使是今天,当他们使用新工艺和新技术后,我们看到他们的改变依然微乎其微。
当然,他们还是半游牧(民族),没有公民,也没有文化。难道你只会用罗马人的观点看世界?(类似中国上国论——译者注)
Ginnis:
Australian Aborigines are far older, they formed hunting societies 40000-50000 years ago in Australia.
And yes, I love the Roman world view.
澳大利亚的土著更久呢,40000-50000年前他们就在澳大利亚形成了游牧社群。
是啊,我就喜欢罗马上国论。
Cywr:
Thats when they are supposed to have arrived there,, but they are not a consistant civilisation in the simplified sense, their lifestyles varied considerable depending on where in Oz they lived (climate and enviroment), not to mention changes, otherwise, yes, they are pretty damn old too, but African hunting societies are older still.
The question is, do we go with the Romano-Urban centric notion of Civilisation and exclude them, or do we try to take a more ethnicity/lifestyle group approach, in which case the Greek/Chinese/etc. come accross as relative babies compared to the likes of the San, and other African and Australian groups.
Generaly speaking, people put the Civis in Civilisation and exclude nomadic hunter types as 'tribal', and thus their often greater and easily traced continuity is ignored.
当他们到达那里之后,但在某种意义上说他们并不是一个连续的文明,他们的生活方式很大程度上取决于他们生活在什么地方(气候和环境的因素),更不用提有没有变化了,否则,是的,他们的历史当然长了,但是非洲的狩猎社会不是更长么。
问题是,我们是否采用罗马的城市中心的概念这一唯一的文明标准,或者我们尝试采取一个多种族/生活方式的方法,比较希腊/中国等等采用哪种方式。一般来说,人们将城市生活视作文明,游牧狩猎类型则看做“部落”,这样更能最大范围且更容易追溯历史的连贯性。
Master_Blaster:
Indian culture, and Hinduism are thousands of years old (Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world and its beginnings are unknown) however, there has never been one long-standing continuous Indian nation.
Indian and Chinese civilizations are two of the oldest in the world, and both have rich histories, but I recall learning in grammar school that the Egyptian civilization was the first great civilization on earth.
Also, bear in mind that "civilization" is described as beginning with the written word and that would make the Middle East - and specifically the Mesopotamia area or modern day Iraq - as the oldest civilization on earth.
印度文化和印度教有千年的历史(印度教是世界宗教史上最古老同时也是未知起源的),但是,那儿从来就没有长期持续的国度。
印度和中国是世界上最古老的2大文明,都拥有悠久的历史,但是我回忆起我初中的所学,诶及文明是世界上的最早的伟大文明。
记住文明开始的标志起始于书写,这使得中东地区,特别是两河流域,也就是现在的伊拉克是最古老的文明。
Cywr:
I doubt that Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world, i'd reckon there are animist religions in Africa that are older.
我对印度教是世界上最古老的教派保持怀疑,我认为在非洲的泛灵论更加古老(类似中国的万物皆由灵——译者注)。
Giannis:
I agree, but you can describe hinduism as the oldest organised religion.
我同意,但你可以把印度教形容为最古老的宗教组织。
vulkan02:
Every religion has some type of organisation. What you mean by organised?
每一个宗教都一定的组织形式,你指的组织是什么?
Giannis:
A caste of priests, significance of temples, prays, sacred artifacts and books and so on. In a few words a specific way of worshiping a deity
教众的等级制,寺庙的特征,祈祷,教义的物品和书籍等等。简单的说就是向神祈祷的特别方式。
vulkan02:
Temples, case of priests(shamans), prays and artifacts i think are part of all religions from animism to christianity. If you talking books probably the oldest then would be Zoroastrianism which was founded around 1200BC based on revealed scripture.
我认为庙宇,祭司(巫师),祷告和器物都是所有宗教信仰的一部分,不论是原始的万物有灵的宗教还是基督教,如果你要说古老的书籍那么根据解密的经文可能是公元前1200年建立的琐罗亚斯德教。
Master_Blaster:
Originally posted by Cywr
I doubt that Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world, i'd reckon there are animist religions in Africa that are older.
Ask any religious studies or philosophy professor and they will tell you that Hinduism is the oldest religion in the world. In fact, it is so old that a date or founder cannot even be attributed to it.
It is the sister religion of Zoroastrianism, and the concept of the Holy Trinity in Christianity actually originated with Hinduism:
Christianity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
Hinduism: The Creator (Brahma) , the Perserver (Vishnu) , the Destroyer (Shiva).
随便问些宗教学者或者是哲学教授,他们都会告诉你印度教是史上最古老的教派。老的什么时间和谁创立的都不知道。
他是琐罗亚斯德教的姊妹教,基督教忠三位一体神的概念事实上源自印度教。
基督教:父神,圣子和圣灵。
印度教:创造之神(梵天),保护之神(毗湿奴),生殖与毁灭之神(湿婆)
Ponce de Leon:
I personally believe that the longest living civilization is yet to be percieved. My bets go on to the USA as being the longest living civilization....EVER!
我个人觉的最长的文明还没有被发现。我打赌美国肯定是最长的文明~~~~史上最久!
malizai_:
The concept of a unitary god has been prevalent amongst the aboriginals for thousand of years as well.
Equally there is said to be more civility in the Indus civilization with a society base on equality than some others.(Although IVC is work in progress i admit.
造物主概念早就在土著中流传了几年前了
同样有说法声称比起别的文明,印度文明更文明。(虽然我承认正在浏览IVC文件)(意思是正在百度——译者注)
Odin:
It depends on what what concept of civilization you are using. For example, one can conider China as one continuous cvilization but can also think of China as 3 successive civilizations (Arnold Toynbee divides up Chinese history into the Hsia-Shang, Classical Sinic, and Buddho-Sinic civilizations). I happen to follow Toynbee's conception of a civilization, and So I consider the longest-lasting civilization ever to be Ancient Egypt (Around 3,500BC to around 500AD).
The oldest living civilization is Buddho-Sinic (originated around 300AD after the fall of the Han Dynasty) followed by Western and Orthodox Christendom (both originated around 600AD). The youngest civilization is Islamic, which started when the Abbasid Caliphate (which was the universal state of the preceding Syriac civilization) collapsed.
这取决于你对文明的定义。例如,可以认为中国是一个连续的文明同样也可以认为中国是3段接替的文明(阿诺德·汤因比将中国历史划分为夏商,古中国和佛教中国文明),我倾向于汤因比的文明概念,所以我认为最长的文明是古埃及文明(大概公元前3500年至公元500年)。
现存最久的文明是佛家中国文明(认为是公元300年汉朝灭亡之后),接下来是西方文明和正统基督(都起源于公元600年),最年轻的文明是伊斯兰文明,它起源于阿拔斯王朝的哈里发倒台之后(这是叙利亚文明的前身)。
译注:阿诺德.约瑟夫.汤因比 Amold J.Toynbee (1889——1975)当代影响最大的英国史学家之一
虽然有网友提出这里的中国的第三个文明可能是儒家文明,但根据忠实原文的原则,仍然改回佛教中国文明,老外他就是这么分的~~
Master_Blaster:
Hinduism is the oldest RELIGION!!! How many times must I emphasize this? Shamanism and animism are NOT religions, rather, they are beliefs which vary from culture to culture.
The oldest civilization has to be the Middle East - primarily Mesopatamia (modern day Iraq) because "civilization" is measured by the FIRST WRITTEN WORD and the first traceable written records are attributed to the Middle East.
Sure, there may have been some peoples who developed agricultural societies, but there were no records written during that time!
印度教是最早的宗教!要我重申多少次!萨满教和泛灵论不是宗教,确切的说,他们在不同的文化中信仰是不同的。
最古老的文明应该是中东——前两河流域(今伊拉克)文明,因为“文明”的标志是最早的文字的书写和最早的可追溯的书写记录,这都表明中东才是最古老的文明
当然,也有可能有一些人发展出了农业社会,但他们在这段时间没有记录留下来。
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gcle2003:
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon
I personally believe that the longest living civilization is yet to be percieved. My bets go on to the USA as being the longest living civilization....EVER!
When 's it going to begin?
For another view:
"America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening period of civilization" - Oscar Wilde.
它什么时候开始的呢?
另一种观点认为:
“美国是第一个从野蛮走向衰落而没有一般文明中断时期的国家”——奥斯卡王尔德 。
Kids:
"Hinduism is the oldest RELIGION!!!"
How about the proto-Indo-European religions? the Native People's religion? Japanese Shinto?
Come on, Hinduism isnt the oldest, but ONE of oldest.....
“印度教是最古老的宗教!!!”
那么原始的印欧宗教又如何呢?地方性宗教呢?日本的神道教呢?
行了吧,印度教不是最古老的,但它最古老的宗教之一……
Kids:
"The oldest civilization has to be the Middle East"
I agree. But, it isnt the LONGEST LIVING civilization; it certainly had the oldest civilizations but they were conquered and abosorbed by later empires and nomadic invaders, such as Arabs.
我同意。但它不是最长的延续至今的文明;它肯定是最古老的文明,但他们被后来的帝国和游牧入侵者征服并且丢弃,比如阿拉伯人。
第二页由山间小客翻译
Master_Blaster:
Originally posted by Kids
"Hinduism is the oldest RELIGION!!!"
How about the proto-Indo-European religions? the Native People's religion? Japanese Shinto?
Come on, Hinduism isnt the oldest, but ONE of oldest.....
Why don't you ask a religion studies, history, or philosophy professor BEFORE you post such nonsense?
HINDUISM, JAINISM, AND BUDDHISM are three of the oldest religions in the world (with Hinduism being the oldest) and all three originated in India! I think your disbelief that India contributed so much to human civilization, i.e. the numeral system, the number zero, etc., stems from the fact that you suffer from an inferiority complex.
I took a religion studies course and trust me - my Jewish professor stated in full confidence that Hinduism was the oldest religion in the world, as did every textbook on religion we went over.
为什么你在胡说八道之前不去请教下宗教学者,历史教授或者哲学教授?
印度教,耆那教和佛教统称为世界三大古老宗教(其中印度教历史最长),这3家都是在印度创立!我想你肯定怀疑印度对世界文明的贡献如此之多。可计数系统,数字0的使用都是源自印度,事实会让你尝尝自卑是什么滋味。
我曾经学习过宗教课程,相信我,在我们查过宗教方面的所有课本后,我的犹太教授信心十足的肯定印度教是世界上最古老的宗教
Kids:
"philosophy professor BEFORE you post such nonsense"
"I think your disbelief that India contributed so much to human civilization, i.e. the numeral system, the number zero, etc., stems from the fact that you suffer from an inferiority complex"
Watch your language! I got honor degree in Political Science from Univesity of Toronto, and philosophy and I dont need someone to criticize my intelligence.
Inferiority complex? When did I say Indians are inferior? Did you even read my first post? I mentioned that my INDIAN FRIEND told me that India has longest history. If I racist or Orientlaist, why would I have make friend from India origin?
You can provide evidences but offensive language or personal attack is unacceptable!
Beside, the post isnt about who has oldest religion, it is about the longest living civilization on earth. If you are so passion about Hinduism, go create another post.
注意你的言辞!我拥有多伦多大学的政治学和哲学荣誉学位,同样我也不需要别人来质疑我的理解力。
自卑感?我什么时候说印度人低人一等了。你有看过我的第一条回复么?我说过我的印度同学告诉我印度拥有悠久的历史,如果我是一个种族主义者我怎么能交到来自印度的朋友?
你可以阐述论据,但不接受使用侮辱性语言或者人身攻击。
再说,帖子讨论的不是谁拥有最古老的宗教,而是地球上仍然延续的最长文明,如果你对印度教这么感兴趣,那就另开一贴。
Master_Blaster:
I'm not passionate about Hinduism, I just merely stated historical facts. And as such, I have already stated that the Mesopatamian civilization is the oldest continuous civilization in the world.
我对印度教没什么兴趣,我只是在阐述一个历史事实,同时,我也早就说过两河流域文明是世界上现存的最古老文明。
gcle2003:
Originally posted by Master_Blaster
It is the sister religion of Zoroastrianism...
What connection do you think Hinduism has with Zoroastrianism?
Hinduism conflates two traditions - the polytheism typical of all the original Indo-European peoples with the doctrine of Karma and reincarnation (which I've always felt the incoming Indo-Europeans probably picked up from the indigenous Indian cultures). Zoroastrianism doesn't have much to do with either and represents as much of a new start as Middle Eastern monotheism, even from the point of view of those who date it to the late 2nd millenium BCE, rather than the 6th century BCE.
On the other hand I think I would agree that Hinduism probably is the oldest still widely followed religion: I would take animism to be the name of a class of religions (like monotheism, polytheism, and so on) rather than a specific religion. Of the animist religions Shinto is the most widely spread (I would have thought), and it just may be older than Hinduism, but we don't really know. The origins of both are obscured.
(PS Oldest civilisation isnt the same thing as oldest religion.)
你认为印度教和拜火教有什么联系?
印度教融合自2个教派——无神教与典型的信奉因果报应和轮回转世的印欧语系的人们有关(我一直认为后来的印欧人继承了印第安土著文化)。拜火教和这其中的任何一个都没什么联系,更多代表的是中东一神教新的开端。有些人就从一观点上更多的将拜火教看做始于公元前2000年末期,而不是什么公元前6世纪。
另一方面我也认同印度教可能是目前仍被信奉的最古老宗教,我倾向于将泛灵论统称为一类宗教(像一神论,多神论等等)而不是一种独立的宗教。泛灵论中的神道教传播非常广泛(我认为的),它可能比印度教还要古老但我们却不知道。他们的起源都模糊不明。
Mixcoatl:
It is impossible to define civilization, and it is even more impossible to draw a line inbetween different civilizations, both in time and in space. Hence it is impossible to name the longest living civilization.
根本就没法给文明一个准确的定义,甚至连在时空上给不同文明间划上一条分界线都做不到。更如何说去命名哪一个是现有的最长文明。
Master_Blaster:
Originally posted by gcle2003
What connection do you think Hinduism has with Zoroastrianism?
Hinduism conflates two traditions - the polytheism typical of all the original Indo-European peoples with the doctrine of Karma and reincarnation ……
1. Hinduism is not a polytheistic religion. It is both a polytheistic and monotheistic faith.
2. Research Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and you will notice that both religions incorporate the histories of Indo-Iranian peoples.
3. I already stated multiple times that HINDUISM is the oldest religion and that the Mesopatamian civilization is the oldest continous civilization.
1、印度教不是一神论宗教,同时包括一神论和多神论信仰。
2、研究过拜火教和印度教的话你就会注意到这2个宗教都吸收了印度伊朗语系人的历史
3、我已经多次阐述过印度教是最古老的宗教而两河文明是现存最长的文明。
gcle2003:
Originally posted by Master_Blaster
1. Hinduism is not a polytheistic religion. It is both a polytheistic and monotheistic faith.
Then it's polytheist, isn't it? Or are you saying it is not a religion but a faith, in which case I don't understand the distinction you are drawing?
那不就是多神论?你刚说那不是一种宗教而是信仰,不明白你指的有什么区别?
2. Research Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and you will notice that both religions incorporate the histories of Indo-Iranian peoples.
Well, yes, since they're both Indo-European in origin (Hinduism in part). But by my question I meant what connections do they have religiously - i.e. in doctrine, beliefs, rituals....
对啊,因为他们都源自印欧人(印度教部分是),但我的问题是他们之间的宗教性有什么联系,例如教旨上,信仰上,仪式上的……
3. I already stated multiple times that HINDUISM is the oldest religion and that the Mesopatamian civilization is the oldest continous civilization.
I said I agreed with you about Hinduism being the oldest extant, widely followed religion, except possibly for Shinto, about which I don't think we know enough to argue.
But your stating something doesn't make it true, no matter how often you state it. You need some argument to support the statement.
I'll give you one: Hinduism results from the merger of the beliefs of the incoming Indo-European migrants and those of the indigenous peoples. No other extant, widely followed religion can date its origin back further than that.
As for civilisations, the Mesopotamian ones died out an awful long time ago. They certainly had a long run, but I'd have thought the ancient Egyptian civilisation has any of the Mesopotamian ones beat.
我已经说过我同意你关于印度教是尚存的、信徒广泛的宗教,但是可能要排除神道教,因为我认为我们并没有掌握足够的信息去讨论他是不是早于印度教。
但是你的论据并不是很充分,无论你重申了多少次,你必须有论据支持你的观点。
我说一条:印度教起源自后来的印欧人移民和土著人们的信仰。没有第二个尚存并广泛传播的宗教能追溯至那么久。
然后对文明而言,两河文明早已经在很久以前就很遗憾的消失了。他们确实有一段很长的历史,但我认为古埃及文明各个方面都完胜两河文明。
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com翻译:熊孩子+山间小客+trytrytry+Jonathan+duke99+Katherine等
Master_Blaster:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9410/hindu1.html
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20011106.html
http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara ... oldest-religion.htm
Hinduism is widely regarded by historians as being the oldest religion in the world. It cannot be credited to a single founder or even a date to its' beginnings.
史学家们都普遍认可印度教是世界最古老的宗教。都无法找出其创立者甚至是创立的时间。
Shinto-ism is certainly not the world's oldest religion, in fact, from what I know, both Jainism and Buddhism (these two religions were also founded in India and derived from Hinduism) are many centuries older than Shinto-ism.
神道教绝对不是世界最古老的宗教,事实上以我了解的耆那教和佛教(这两大教派都演变自印度教切在印度创立)比起神道教要早很多世纪。
http://www.archaeologynews.org/link.asp?ID=20318
Here is an excerpt from this link:
摘录至上面网址
"Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots in Dravidianism. Dravidianism was estimated to have been practised around 6000 to 3000BCE and as such predates Sumerian, Egyptian and Babylonian cultures."
印度教有记录的源头见于原始宗教.人们推测原始宗成熟于公元前6000年至公元前3000年,照这样算要先于苏美尔文明,埃及文明和巴比伦文明。
I am not a Hindu and as such, I have no personal interest in propogating anything that would place Hinduism in a positive light. I am merely restating those facts which are widely accepted by the world's archeological community.
我本身不是印度教徒,也没那兴趣为了夸大印度教而宣传什么。我纯粹的只是想重申那些被考古学界广泛接受的事实。
And as I have also stated in this section many times over, Mesopotamia is the world's oldest civilization.
同样我已经在这篇贴文中说过很多次,两河流域文明是世界上最古老的文明
http://www.classbrain.com/artaskcb/publish/article_119.shtml
The most common definition of civilization is “an advanced state of development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of writing, and complex political and social institutions.”
关于文明最普世的定义“一种高度发展的人类社会形态,以科学艺术,广泛的书写和复杂的政治经济体系为标志”
Now, if you scroll up, you will notice that I stated much the same thing in my previous posts when I defined "civilization" as having begun with the "written word".
如果你看翻上去看回帖,你就会发现这和我之前以文字书写作为文明的开端所表达的意思基本相同。
Essentially, Mesopotamia is the most decided upon answer to your question, based on archeological evidence and the above definition.
实际上,根据考古证据和上面的定义,最符合你问题的答案就是两河流域文明。
This is an excerpt from the same above link.
这是同一个网址的摘录。
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia
"Mesopotamia was one of the first, if not the first, place in the world where writing developed."
两河流域即使不是第一也是世界上最早发明书写的文明之一。
http://www.digonsite.com/drdig/neareast/28.html
"This depends so much on how we define a civilization! The first permanent farming settlements were established in the Middle East in approximately 8000 B.C. By 6000 to 5500 B.C., irrigation has developed and the roots of the Mesopotamian civilization were in place. By 3300 the city of Uruk had two great temples, and its priests and accountants had developed cuneiform writing. Other early farming communities are India (7000 B.C.) and China (6500 B.C.), both of which led eventually to civilizations. The Indus state emerged in 2700 B.C., while the Xia dynasty in China developed in 2100 B.C."
这很大程度上依据我们如何定义文明!第一个固定农耕定居点大约成立于公元前8000年的中东地区。公元前6000年至公元前5500年前,那里就有了发达的灌溉技术和两河文明雏形。公元前3300年,乌鲁克市就有了2大宏伟庙宇,神职人员和统计人员也使用成熟的楔形文字。其他早期的农耕社会分别是印度(公元前7000年)和中国(公元前6500年),都最终形成了各自文明。公元前2700年印度国成立,一段时间后的公元前2100年中国夏朝建立
I can find you other sources which state that India's civilization is much older than China's and some historians who claim that India's civilization is even older than that of Mesopotamia's - hence, making India's civilization the oldest in the world. However, since the earliest Indian civilizations (as well as Chinese civilizations) were farming communities, archeologists tend to regard Mesopotamian civilization as the oldest.
我能为你找到表明印度文明远比中国文明悠久的史料,以及一些历史学家主张印度文明更悠久于两河文明的资料——这样,印度文明就成了世界上最古老的文明。不管如何,正因为最早的印度文明(同中国文明)是农耕社会,考古学家们都倾向于将两河流域文明视为最悠久的。
Nestorian:
我本身不是印度个教徒,同时也没有那兴趣……
You are not a Hindu as such? Isn't a simple yes or no much easier? Plus, one does not need to be a Hindu to be a Indian nationalist. I've acquired a degree in political science and history and I'm familiar with Indian theories about civilisation "deriving from" India. About how the Indo-Europeans came from India and not the other way around. Are you one of those?
你本身不是印度教徒?简单的回答是或不是不是更简单?再说,一个印度种族主义者不一定非要是印度教徒。我拥有政治学和历史学的双重学位,也了解印度人关于人类文明发源于印度这样的理论。印欧人哪儿都不是就是来自印度如何?你印度论中的一个?
Plus, the Trinity has no roots in Hinduism. It is purely superficial and there is no semblance at all.
另外,三位一体不是源自印度教。这观点实在太过肤浅,他们之间也不存在相似的地方。
Consider this:
可以这样认为:
IN Christian Theology God is three persons, but each person is distinct and individual, but not separate. God does not manifest as three persons. But IS three persons. It is a self-sustaining relationship,
基督神学主神是三位神,每一个神都是个性鲜明的个体却又没分离。主神有三神的神格但是不以三神展现。这是一种相互独立的关系。(译者:意思是一体三魂)
Krishna may manifest in many forms and that is different from the Trinitarian concept. Despite the fact that the "official" wording and description of the Trinitarian concept did happen till the around the time of the councils of Nicaea, it was merely a confirmation of existing beliefs, sort of like a final declaration or consolidation of what a large majority of the Church believed. No Hindu influence there though.
克利须那神可以以不同的形式表露显然不同于三神一体的理念。不管是官方的措词还是尼西亚会议期间关于三位一体神的描述。这基本上就是盖棺定论的观点,有一点像最终解释或者大多数教会的共识。没有受到印度的影响。
Krishna克利须那神
Unless of course, you also believe that Jesus went to India like some New Agers believe?
What would proving India as the oldest civilisation prove? That everything comes from India? Or just being proud of the fact?
当然除非你也同新时代宗教信仰者一样认为耶稣去过印度?
你怎么样证明印度是最古老的文明?什么都源自印度?这样的事实是不是很自豪?
gcle2003:
You write as if I disagreed with you.
However, where do you get the information from about the origins of Shintoism?
And you keep ignoring the fact that the question refers to 'living' civilisations. The Mesopotamian civilisations, not matter how long ago they started, have been dead for a long time. They aren't 'living' civilisations. Much the same applies to the early Indian civilisations like that of Mohenjo Daru.
好像我不认同你说的。
不管如何,你是从哪知道神道教起源资料的?
你又才一次忽略事实那就是我们讨论的是现存文明的问题。不管两河文明起源于多久,很久就已经消亡了。那就不再是现存文明。就像摩亨佐-达罗的消亡一样适用于早期的印度文明。
The other point at issue is the confusion between the Hindu religion and the original religions of the country, before the Indo-European migration, about which we know very little if anything. Vedic Hinduism, which seems to result from the merger of Indo-European beliefs with local ones, dates back probably no more than 1500 BCE, though it probably had been developing for some while before that.
另一个焦点是这个国家在印度人的宗教和本土原始宗教上的不确定,我们对印欧人移民之前的事没多少了解。
貌似由印欧人和当地人信仰结合演化而成的吠陀印度教派,追溯其时间可能不早于公元前1500年,也可能在那之间早就发展过一段时间了。
Which would make it not so old as the ancient Egyptian religion, but of course it has lasted a lot longer. (Though it has changed considerably in recent historical times, especially with the feedback from Buddhism and Jainism. The monotheistic element is much stronger now that originally, probably due to the influence of the middle eastern religions.)
即使不能使它和古埃及宗教一样古老,但是至少存在了很长一段时间。(虽然后期受到耆那教和佛教的影响改变了很多。但一神论要素仍比原始宗教浓厚,可能是因为受到了中东地区宗教的影响)
引用Master_Blaster的链接
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9410/hindu1.html
Inter alia it says "In Sanskrit, the original language of India, 'Sanatana' means Everlasting and 'Dharma', by a crude translation, means Religion."
Sanskrit is not the original language of India. Why trust anything else the site says?
链接特别提到“在印度古老语言梵文中,‘Santana’表示永恒和法则,粗略的翻译就是宗教”
梵文不是印度的原始语言,怎么只要网站写都相信?
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20011106.html
This one confirms what I wrote.
上面这个佐证了我的观点。
http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara ... oldest-religion.htm
This one says "This is probably because Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots, which lie in Dravidianism. Dravidianism is estimated to have been practiced around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE and as such predates the Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian cultures."
有人说“这可能是因为印度教的源头最早记录于原始宗教,推测原始宗教成熟于公元前6000年至公元前3000年,这样的话就先于苏美尔文明,埃及文明和巴比伦文明。”
It makes exactly the mistake I described of confusing the indigenous religion, which he calls 'Dravidianism'. Dravidian is the term for the 'original' inhabitants, and i don't think we know anything about their religion. That Hinduism has 'roots' in the indigenous religion is a point I made: however it also has roots in the early Indo-European religions.
这完全就是错的,我已经说了关于印度本地宗教的疑惑,也就是他所说的原始宗教(Draviianism)。原始宗教是相对于原始人类的用语,我认为我们一点也不了解他们的宗教,我说过印度教的根源可追溯至原始的土生宗教,但同样也可以在早期印欧人的宗教中发现。
If you use its 'roots' as a criterion, then you have to admit Christianity has roots in Judaism and Judaism has roots in the tribal religions of the near east, and, in general, all religions have roots that go back into prehistory.On that basis they are all as old as one another.
如果你用根源当做标准,那么你就必须承认基督教的根源是犹太教,犹太教的根源则追溯至靠近东方的部落宗教,然后从广义上说所有的宗教都能在史前文明中找到根源。依据这个的话他们彼此都同样古老。
Hinduism is widely regarded by historians as being the oldest religion in the world. It cannot be credited to a single founder or even a date to its' beginnings.
史学家们都普遍认可印度教是世界最古老的宗教。都不能找出其创立者甚至是创立的时间。
Shinto-ism is certainly not the world's oldest religion, in fact, from what I know, both Jainism and Buddhism (these two religions were also founded in India and derived from Hinduism) are many centuries older than Shinto-ism.
神道教绝对不是世界最古老的宗教,事实上以我的了解耆那教和佛教(这两大教派都演变自印度教切在印度创立)比起神道教要早很多世纪。
http://www.archaeologynews.org/link.asp?ID=20318
This one only addresses the question of which is the oldest of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. It doesn't even mention Shinto.
这是回答犹太教,基督教,伊斯兰教和印度哪一个是最古老的宗教的唯一网址
Again, as far as I'm aware, we have no evidence relating to when Shinto originated (and little regarding when and where the Japanese people came from). Extremists will claim that it dates back to the Jomon period (perhaps as early as 10,000 BCE) which would make it earlier than anything else.
再说一次,以我目前的了解,我们没有证据推断神道教是何时创立的(和日本人何时出现,从哪来没什么关系),极端者声称能追溯至神道时代(可能早至公元前10000年)那么将比任何一个宗教都要久远。
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com翻译:熊孩子+山间小客+trytrytry+Jonathan+duke99+Katherine等
Kids:
引用之前的话
我知道你怀疑印度对人类的文明贡献如此之多……
我对印度不狂热,我只是在陈述历史事实。
You sounds arrogant and rude
你看起来真傲慢无礼。
Master_Blaster:
引用之前Nestorian的留言
我本身不是个印度教徒……引用Nestorian
你本身不是印度教徒?简单的回答是或不是不更简单?……
Well, I am neither a Hindu nor an Indian nationalist. I do not believe everything originated in India, and I certainly do not refute the Aryan Invasion Theory. The Hindu nationalists who propagate such nonsense as India being the root of all great contributions to human civilization are absurd and irrational and I would never waste my time debating with such people regardless of their national origin.
好吧,我既不是个印度教徒也不是个印度种族主义者。我不相信万物起源于印度,当然我也反驳不了雅利安人入侵理论。印度种族主义推崇的所有伟大的人类文明的根源都源自印度,这样的观点荒谬可笑,不管他是哪一国的我都不会浪费时间跟这样的人争论。
引用Nestorian的话
再说,三位一体理论的根源不在印度教……
You simply making a claim such as the "Trinity has no roots in Hinduism" does not make it true unless you can support such a claim with fact.
这里你很草率的就断言“三位一体神论的根源不是出自印度教”,除非你能以事实做依据要不然你就不要这么断言。
引用Nestorian
基督神学主神是三位神,每一个神都是个性鲜明的……
克利须那神可以以不同的形式表露显然不同于三神一体的理念……
I am not Hindu so I am certainly not going to bother arguing Hindu theology with you. I only offered up the notion that Hinduism may have influenced the concept of the Christian Trinity. Perhaps I could have worded it less ambiguously by stating that the Aryan concepts, which were later, adopted into Hinduism are the same basis for the idea of the Christian Trinity. I certainly do not have any doubts that the Aryan peoples' beliefs influenced Judaism which in turn influenced Christianity.
我不是印度教徒所以我自然不会跟你争论印度神学。我唯一能献上的看法是基督教的三位一体神论受到了印度教的影响。我可能在之前论述印欧人概念时稍微模糊的提过,之后被印度教吸收的印欧理念同样是基督教三位一体的根据。
引用Nestorian:
当然除非你也如那些新世纪运动的信仰者一样认为耶稣去过印度。
No, I do certainly do not believe that. It is absurd for anyone to believe such a thing and I myself would think anyone who placed any emphasis on such a theory was lacking all rational.
不,我肯定不这样认为。任何人相信这事都太荒唐了,我个人认为强调这理论的人都太缺乏理性。
引用Nestorian
什么能印度是最古老的文明?万物源自印度?……
I never stated that India was the oldest civilization in the world. I stated many times that the oldest civilization in the world, as accepted by the archaeologist community is that of Mesopotamia, if you want to argue that India is the oldest continuous civilization in the world, then all you need to do is scroll up to the links I provided which state that the earliest communities in India originated in 7,000 BC – a full 500 years before the Chinese civilization.
我从来没说过印度是世界上最古老的文明。我说过很多次,被考古学界认可的最古老文明是两河流域文明。如果你想争论印度是不是世上延续最久的文明。那你需要做的就是去看看我提供的链接,那上面有说印度最早的社会出现于公元前7000年——比中国文明早整整500年。
Also, I never stated that everything comes from India, but I did lend credence where it is due in that the modern numeral system we utilize today, and other concepts did in fact originate in ancient India.
我也从来没说过什么都出自印度,但我确实说过我们现代使用的数学系统出自那,一些概念实际上也在印度提出的。
Something to be proud of? I suppose if I were East Indian, then I would be proud of it, but as such, I only pointed it out as a known fact. I am getting the impression from you that you feel Indian civilization is inferior to your own and others which you have high regard for – is this a valid assumption?
值得骄傲的事?如果我要是东印度人,那么我确实会骄傲,但我只是将那些当做众人皆知的事实说了出来。我感觉的到,你认为印度文明比不上你自己的和你所尊敬的文明——是不是一个非常正确的设想?
Kids:
"我既不是印度教徒也不是印度种族主义者……"
I doubt that
我怀疑真实性
“我认为你怀疑印度对人类文明的贡献如此之多,例如……”
Arrogant and rude
傲慢无礼
"你需要做的就是去看看我提供的链接…… "
First of all, being oldest doesnt mean most "advanced":
China was the master of technology in ancient time and only Roman empire was perhaps equal to its golory (read the National Geography's A Chinese Empire that rival Rome).
首先,最古老的不代表是最先进的。
古代中国是科技的领导者,可能也只有罗马帝国能与之相比。(读读国家地理的匹敌罗马帝国的中华帝国)
In fact, there has been numerous books that compared the Classical Age of China and Greece since China's experience was most comparable to Greece
事实上,因为中国经历是最能和希腊相比的,很多的书籍都会将古中国和希腊做比较。
The Cambridge University published the renowed scholar of Hellenic studies, Dr. G. E. R. Lioyd "The Ambitions of Curiosity: Understanding the World in Ancient Greece and China" in year 2002
剑桥大学2002年出版了著名希腊史学者G.E.R.劳埃德的《猎奇雄心:读懂希腊和中国的古代世界》”
(译注:G.E.R.劳埃德曾写过《古代世界的现代思考:透视希腊中国的科学与文化》,但是看英文名和这里举例的不同,所以我就自己翻译了,欢迎提供更好的名字)
Yale University also published "The Way and the World: Science and Medicien in Early China and Greece" by another renowned Classic scholars Geoggrey Lloyd and Nathan Sivin in year 2002
耶鲁大学也同样在2002年出版了另一位著名古典家Geogrey Lioyd和Nathan Sivin的《世界作风:古代中国和希腊的科学和医学》
The above books can be found in most of major libraries of North American university (UBC, Univeristy of Torono, University of Alberta, Yale, Harvard, Oxford, MIT....). There are actually more academic books from Oxford in comparsion of Chinese science and Greek approach to the natural world, but the list is too long.
所提到的书籍都能在大多数北美高校的图书馆中找到(英属哥伦比亚大学,多伦多大学,阿尔伯达大学,耶鲁,哈佛,牛津,麻省理工等等),事实上还有很多更学术的著作比较中国和希腊科学接近物质世界的程度,但是列出来太长了。
If you ever took comparable history, scholars has been compared the achievements in science and technology between ancient Greece and China for two decades now.
如果曾经对比过历史,学者们关于古希腊和古中国在科学技术上成就的比较已经持续了2个多世纪
I havnt heard any prominet Western scholars compared India and Greece or India and China in terms of technological and scientific achievements.
我从来没听说过哪个著名西方学者在科学技术成就方面比较过印度和希腊或者印度和中国。
Master_Blaster:
引用gcle2003
我好像不能认同你的观点。
I understand your position in that there are multiple possibilities but until there is a consolidated effort amongst the archeologists, historians, and theologians to change the school curriculum, then I will continue to believe what we are taught in school.
我理解你说的很多可能性,但是除非以后考古学家、历史学家以及神学家能联合将这些写入课程,那么我才会继续相信学校里教的。
For example, as Nestorian stated, there are consolidated efforts on the part of Hindu nationalists, and scholars of Indian thought, to debunk the Aryan Immigration Theory. I will admit that some of their reasoning does make one entertain their ideas but again, unless the Aryan Immigration Theory is completely rejected by the world community, I will still continue to believe it to be true. Similarly, Shinto-ism may or may not be older than Hinduism, but until the world community accepts this, I will continue to believe that the latter and not the former is the oldest religion in the world.
就如Nestorian说的,大都认为部分的印度种族主义者和印度理论学者是想推翻雅利安人入侵理论。我承认他们中的部分解释能支撑他们的观点,除非世界学术界普遍否定雅利安入侵理论,否则我仍然认为它是正确的。
引用gcle2003
那你又是从哪了解神道教的?
As far as I am aware, scholars accept that Hinduism originated around 1500 BC with the Aryan invasion of India, and Shinto-ism originated in 300 BC in Japan.
就目前我知道的,学者们认同印度教与公元前1500年起源于雅利安人入侵下的印度,神道教起源于公元前300年的日本。
引用gcle2003
你又一次无视我们讨论的是……
I offered a retort to this query in my response to Nestorian, and you can derive what my response would have been by the link I provided to you earlier in which it stated that Mesopotamia was the oldest civilization and that Indian civilization originated circa 7000 BC and Chinese civilization originated circa 6500 BC. That would make the Indian civilization the oldest continuous civilization in the world, and Chinese civilization, the second oldest.
我在回复Nestorian的时候有提到这个询问,你可以在我早先提供给你的网址得到我的回复,网址中提到两河文明是最古老的文明,印度文明大约开始于公元前7000年,中国文明大约是公元前6500年。那么印度文明就是世界上现存最古老的文明而中国文明排第二。
引用gcle2003
另一个焦点是这个国家在印度人的宗教和本土原始宗教上的不确定,我们对印欧人移民之前的事没多少了解。
貌似由印欧人和当地人信仰结合演化而成的吠陀印度教派,追溯其时间可能不早于公元前1500年,也可能在那之间早就发展过一段时间了。
You are correct, Vedic Hinduism does indeed have its origins in or around 1500 BC but this refers only to the Aryan concepts that were coupled with the beliefs of the conquered Dravidians. The history of the origins of Hinduism actually lies with the Dravidian peoples and this may actually be a lot further back than 1500 BC.
你说的对,吠陀印度教确实起源或大约起源于公元前1500年,但是只是参照雅利安概念而言,那时候已经结合了德拉维人的信仰。事实上印度教起源的历史能跟德拉维人联系上,这样可能就远远不止公元前1500年。
引用gcle2003
即使不能使它和古埃及宗教一样古老,但是至少存在了很长一段时间。(虽然后期受到耆那教和佛教的影响改变了很多。但一神论要素仍比原始宗教浓厚,可能是因为受到了中东地区宗教的影响)
I agree with you here completely. Although a Hindu will be reluctant to admit it if you asked him, I too feel that it was with the introduction of Islam to India that great emphasis was placed on the monotheistic element in Hinduism.
我完全赞同你的观点。尽管你问一个印度人时他承认的有点勉强。我觉得在伊斯兰教传播至印度时强调的重点变成了印度教中的多神论。

引用gcle2003
链接特别提到“在印度古老语言梵文中,‘Santana’表示永恒和法则,粗略的翻译就是宗教”
Dharma does not mean religion, it is translated as DUTY, it may imply religion but I am not sure of this.
Dhama(梵语法则)意思不是宗教,应该是责任,可能带点宗教的意思但我不太确定。
引用gcle2003
梵文不是印度的原始语言,怎么只要网站写的都相信?
Sanskrit is the original language of India as accepted by the majority of scholars. Sanskrit is credited as being the mother language of all Indic languages. No doubt that Dravidian languages which were free of Indo-European terminology may have been the very first words spoken in the land now known as India, but by in large, Sanskrit is widely regarded and accepted as the original formulated language of India – just as Avestan is the original language of the Iranian peoples and the sister language of Sanskrit.
大部分学者都认同梵语是印度的最初语言。梵语被认为是所有印度语系的母语。毫无疑问没有印欧语言名词的德拉维语可能是后世印度大地上说的第一种真正的语言。但广义上大都认为梵语是印度最初的系统语言——就像Avesan(与古波斯语非常接近的一种语言)一样被认为是伊朗人的原始语言,同时也是梵语的姊妹语种。

引用gcle2003
有人说“这可能是因为印度教的源头最早记录于原始宗教,推测原始宗教成熟于公元前6000年至公元前3000年,这样的话就先于苏美尔文明,埃及文明和巴比伦文明。”
There is evidence, which suggests that the Dravidian peoples migrated through the Middle East, settled in the Iranian Plateau, and then made their way to India.
有证据表明迁徙的德拉维人穿过中东,定居在伊朗高原,最后开始了向印度迁徙之路。
引用gcle2003
这完全就是错的,我已经说了关于印度本地宗教的疑惑,也就是他所说的原始宗教(Draviianism)。原始宗教是相对于原始人类的用语,我认为我们一点也不了解他们的宗教,我说过印度教的根源可追溯至原始的土生宗教,但同样也可以在早期印欧人的宗教中发现。
You are correct, Dravidians are the original peoples of India and today, they are largely confined to the Deccan Plateau in the southern Indian states of Kerala, Tamil, etc., but bear in mind that it was with the influx of the Aryan into India around 1500 BC and the adoption of Dravidian religious beliefs with that of the Aryans, which produced Vedic Hinduism. And that is why Hinduism is credited as having begun circa 1500 BC although the actual origins of Hinduism are thousands of years prior to that.
不错,德拉维人就是现在的印度人祖先,他们活动范围大都在印度南部克拉拉、泰米尔那德等邦的德干高原,但是记住他们是公元前1500年和雅利安人一起涌入印度的,融合了德拉维人的宗教信仰产生了吠陀印度教。这就是为什么大都认为印度教产生于公元前1500年左右,但事实上它的起始年代要早上好几千年。
PS: Aryans introduced Indo-European language terminology and religious concepts to the Dravidians upon conquering the Indus River basin.
PS:雅利安人向德拉维人引进了印欧词汇和宗教理念然后征服了印度河盆地。
引用gcle2003
如果你用根源当做标准,那么你就必须承认基督教的根源是犹太教,犹太教的根源则追溯至靠近东方的部落宗教,然后从广义上说所有的宗教都能在史前文明中找到根源。依据这个的话他们彼此都同样古老。
On that basis, then Hinduism would remain as the oldest religion in the world because it has its roots in pre-historical Dravidian beliefs. Look, you stated that Shinto-ism might be the oldest religion based on the concept of where its roots can be traced, right? In that case, I argued that Hinduism serves as the oldest. On the other hand, if you accept that Hinduism as we know it today originated in 1500 BC –then you must also accept that Shinto-ism is credited with having originated in 300 BC, a full 1200 years after Hinduism!
基于这种标准,印度教仍然是世界上最古老的宗教,因为它的根源在曾经的德拉维人信仰中。瞧,你也说了根据追寻根源的原则神道教可能是最古老的宗教,是不?照你说的,我认为印度教可以作为最古老的。再说,你如果承认我们今天说的印度教起源于公元前1500年,那你也必须同样承认神道教被认为起源于公元前300年,整整晚于印度教1200年。
引用gcle2003
这是唯一回答了犹太教,基督教,伊斯兰教和印度哪一个是最古老的宗教问题的网址
Shinto-ism was founded circa 300 BC.
神道教大于创立于公元前300年
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_world_religions
引用gcle2003
再说一次,以我目前的了解,我们没有证据推断神道教是何时创立的(和日本人何时出现,从哪来没什么关系),极端者声称能追溯至神道时代(可能早至公元前10000年)那么将比任何一个宗教都要久远。
Extremists in all societies are the root cause of nothing more than mistrust, animosity, hatred, and ethnocentrism. It is due to extremists that conflicts exist in Israel-Palestine, India-Pakistan, Ireland-England, etc. I do not put any credence into anything an extremist believes.
极端主义者往往就是怀疑,憎恨,种族优越的根源。以色列与巴勒斯坦、印度和巴基斯坦,伊朗和英国等等之间的冲突就是因为极端主义者而起的。我完全不相信极端主义的观点
I enjoyed this debate very much, you are very knowledgeable.
非常喜欢这样的讨论,你非常博学
引用Kids
"我既不是印度教徒也不是印度种族主义者……"
I doubt that
我怀疑真实性
Arrogant and rude
引用:傲慢无礼
"你需要做的就是去看看我提供的链接…… "
首先,最古老的不代表是最先进的。
古代中国是科技的领导者,可能也只有罗马帝国能与之相比。(读读国家地理的匹敌罗马帝国的中华帝国)
事实上,因为中国经历是最能和希腊相比的,很多的书籍都会将古中国和希腊做比较。
剑桥大学2002年出版了著名希腊史学者G.E.R.劳埃德的《猎奇雄心:读懂希腊和中国的古代世界》”
(译注:G.E.R.劳埃德曾写过《古代世界的现代思考:透视希腊中国的科学与文化》,但是看英文名和这里举例的不同,所以我就自己翻译了,欢迎提供更好的名字)
耶鲁大学也同样在2002年出版了另一位著名古典家Geogrey Lioyd和Nathan Sivin的《世界作风:古代中国和希腊的科学和医学》
所提到的书籍都能在大多数北美高校的图书馆中找到(英属哥伦比亚大学,多伦多大学,阿尔伯达大学,耶鲁,哈佛,牛津,麻省理工等等),事实上还有很多更学术的著作比较中国和希腊科学接近物质世界的程度,但是列出来太长了。
如果曾经对比过历史,学者们关于古希腊和古中国在科学技术上成就的比较已经持续了20多年
我从来没听说过哪个著名西方学者在科学技术成就方面比较过印度和希腊或者印度和中国。
Your posts reap of anti-Indianism. I have no doubt that you view Indians with a sense of inferiority. I am not here to defend Hinduism or Indians, I simply stated what is widely regarded as fact.
你的言论读起来就像个反印度主义者。我肯定你带有色眼镜看待印度人,我在这儿并不是捍卫印度教或是印度人,我只是在陈述一段皆知的历史
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=4567
Read India's contributions to human civilization - pay especially close attention to what Albert Einstein stated.
读下印度对人类文明的贡献,特别重点关注下爱因斯坦说的
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics
http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/mathematics.htm
http://www.ayurvedahc.com/articl ... ibutions/Page1.html
You do realize that during the Mughal Empire's reign in India, the Mughal economy's annual revenues were 17 times more than what was in the English monarch's treasury, right? Are you familiar with this aspect of Indian history? When we in the West refer to billionnaires such as Donald Trump as "moguls" - it is directly derived from the Mughal emporers of India who were the richest rulers in the world during their day.
你应该意识到印度莫卧尔王朝时期,莫卧尔的经济税收是大英帝国国库的17倍之多,是不是?你对印度这方面了解么?当我们西方把唐纳德·特朗普这样的亿万富翁当作“权贵”(moguls权贵之意)时——事实上他们是从印度当时最富裕的统治者莫卧尔帝王那演变而来。
I suspected that you were a racist and now you have proven my point. Next time you do your taxes or any form of math - just remember that you are using the INDIAN NUMERAL SYSTEM!
我断定你就是一个种族主义,现在你的言论又肯定了我的推断。下次当你缴税或做其他的数学运算时,请记住你正在用的是印度数字系统。
India is one of the richest civilizations in the world, the only reason you compare Greece to anything is because you live in a Western society that was directly influenced by Greek democratic principles.
印度文明是世界上最富饶的文明之一,你将任何事情都和希腊对比的唯一解释是你一直受到希腊民主主义的影响。
It's obvious to me you're a racist and a bigot. Please do not ever bother responding to me with any of your hate-filled nonsense -which you are so good at spewing in your lousy English.
对我来说你明显就是个种族主义。拜托你也别用拿充满仇恨的废话来回复我了——你太会用污秽的英语喷人了。
Kids:
"It's obvious to me you're a racist and a bigot. Please do not ever bother responding to me with any of your hate-filled nonsense -which you are so good at spewing in your lousy English."
对我来说你明显就是个种族主义。拜托你也别用拿充满仇恨的废话来回复我了——你太会用污秽的英语喷人了。
What the hell is that? Its you who first attack me personally, and now you refers me as racist?
我勒个去见鬼了?是你先开始对我人身攻击的,现在反过来说我是种族主义。
Proof your points with academic resources not with some online stuffs; i dont do my research papers with online wikipedia
请用一些学术观点来证明你的论点不要禁弄些网上的。我又不是用维基百科完成我的论文的。
If i am racist, then please check my first post and prove my post is an orientalist view
如果我是一个种族主义者,那么请查阅下我第一条言论并且证明我的回复是彻底的东方主义观点。
If I am racist, what would I bother to say China was advanced civilization?
如果我是一个种族主义者,我干嘛不去说中国是最先进的文明。
Regarding of my Chinese technological superiority, I already list all the academic resources, not from some wikipedia stuffs. All my books are from prominent universities in North America.
关于我说的中国科学技术的优越性,我已经列举了所有的教科书了,不是来自维基百科之类的,我所有的书籍都来自北美的顶尖大学。
And if you think i am racist, tell the administrater to ban me from the forum, otherwise stop this nonsense.
如果你还认为我是一个种族主义者,那么就去跟管理举报封了我,要不然就别胡扯。
You obivous dont have respect for someone who raise questions about India even after I have said that my India friend claimed India is oldest.
你显然一点也不尊重提出的问题涉及到印度的人,即使我有说过我的印度朋友赞扬印度是最古老的文明。
Master_Blaster:
Are you of Chinese descent? Do you feel that Chinese are superior to Indians? I'm trying to understand why you have such a negative view of Indian history. I do not need to prove anything as I have already provided you with multiple links and sources whereas all you have done is make some ludicrous claims in very bad English. I've never heard of ancient Chinese civilization being compared to Greek civilization.
你有中国人血统?你是不是觉得中国人比印度人优越?我在试着弄懂你为什么这么贬低印度的历史。我根本就不需要证明什么,因为我已经向你提供了很多的链接,你糟糕的英语列举的资料只能徒增笑料罢了。我从来没有听过有人对比过中国文明和希腊文明。
Mind you my non-English speaking friend, that contributions to human civilization have been made by many peoples and no one civilization or people is inferior or superior to another.
非英语的朋友请记住,很多人都对人类历史有贡献。没有哪一个文明人种比其他的高级或者低级。
Kids:
"Mind you my non-English speaking friend"

No, I am a French-German descendent from Alberta, and I got honor degree in political science and philosophy form UT. Did I ever claim that you are racist? or inferior english-speaker? All my claim are from academic books that I listed above, and I dont think my reouces are less trustful than your online sources.
不是,我是来自阿尔伯达的法德后裔,我有德州大学的政治,哲学荣誉学位。我有说过你是种族主义么?或者瞧不起说英语的?我所说的都来自上面例举的教科书,我并不认为比起你的网络资源来我的资料不可靠。
"I'm trying to understand why you have such a negative view of Indian history"
我在试着弄懂你为什么这么消极看待印度的历史
First of all, I didnt say anything abour inferiority about Indians or reject the view that India was older than China. My Chinese friend often claim they have 5000 years old, but my history class indicated that Chinese history had merely 3000 years old written history.
首先,我从来没有贬低印度人或者否认印度比中国古老。我的中国朋友经常声称他们有着5000年的历史,但是我的历史课告诉我中国历史只有3000年的记录历史。
Of course Inidians had enourmous contributions to Mathemaics, and did I reject tha claim?
当然印度人对数学有巨大的贡献,但是我有否认过么?
If Chinese didnt have such high technological development and philosophical discorse, why has many Classial scholars bother to compare it with Greece and Romans? and I already back up my claim with some academic books that you can check out.
如果中国没有这么发达的科技水平和哲学观点,为什么古典学者不去对比希腊和罗马?再说我早就用教科书证明了我的观点,你可以自己去查。
I was angry because you attacked me personally without any evidences.
我之所以愤怒是因为你毫无根据的对我进行人身攻击
One last thing, if you think i am white racist, PLEASE TELL THE ADMINISTRATOR TO BAN ME FROM THIS FORUM!!!!!
最后,你如果你认为我是个白人种族主义者,请转告管理员然后封了我!!
感觉和百毒或天涯猫眼之类的讨论差不多.讨论者连原始宗教和宗教都没分清.
物变天汰,余者生存
无聊透顶,问题是那些局部文明现在还有直系后裔吗?
讨论的到底是“文明”还是“文明的定义”?如果是后者,那我就放心了。
不会有结果的。
通常认为是古埃及或苏美尔
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