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江苏盐城倪氏 O1a-F492+

本人由复旦实验室@polyhedron 中通量测得
F492+ F656- F533+之前的17STR为:
14,12,18,23,12,14,13,14,10,11,18,17,15,19,12,13,13

江苏盐城滨海县
4

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江苏盐城的F492好像第一次见公开的,这个姓也比较少见。17-STR和我差四步,也是F656-目前来看台湾的F492比较多是F656+的支系,其他地区的反而不多见,公开过F492的中通量都是F656-的。
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这个姓在苏南不少见 苏北倪很可能就是苏南迁过去的
这个姓在苏南不少见 苏北倪很可能就是苏南迁过去的
yingchuan 发表于 2016-7-14 17:25
如今,倪姓在全国分布甚广,尤以江苏、湖北、上海等省市为多,上述三地之倪姓约占全国汉族倪姓人口的60%,江苏最高占有27%。
倪氏分布.png
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江苏倪兄方便公布下中通量数据吗?
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5# 奋斗 关键的中通量数据就这三个吧
我自己粗略的研究:
1、倪姓当前分布与严博给的P203+分布在长江流域相当一致,在其他地区也正相关
2、倪姓在唐代以前的名人是山东、河北,宋代以后多是江浙沪
3、倪记载有很多苗瑶、侗水取姓的例子,另外还是疍家大姓,和川沙大姓(曾经岛屿,今天浦东)。
4、甚至在分布最远的国际苗语里面,neem(beginning,端倪),neej(life生命,兒?),neeb(shaman巫师, also proper name)同音,在汉语倪基本上是书面语的情况下,仍然提供了比汉语更丰富的信息。

我认为1,3,4是有相当关系的,暗示了一个广泛分布与长江流域甚至到福建沿海的水上渔民的一个clan name,在宋代之后逐渐被纳入同姓的汉姓
我自己粗略的研究:
1、倪姓当前分布与严博给的P203+分布在长江流域相当一致,在其他地区也正相关
2、倪姓在唐代以前的名人是山东、河北,宋代以后多是江浙沪
3、倪记载有很多苗瑶、侗水取姓的例子,另外还是疍家 ...
nfz 发表于 2016-7-15 14:41
不太明白你意思,不过F492基本没有在苗瑶族群和侗水族群有分布,有的话也很稀有。
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8# 奋斗 没讨论F492,因为我觉得倪姓扩张与P203扩张有关,而且因为至少在苗语里有职业属性,所以基因一开始就是多元、本地的。苗瑶侗水的最新分布在哪里有?
8# 奋斗 F492下游分支尤其F656-现在还没有眉目呢
8# 奋斗 没讨论F492,因为我觉得倪姓扩张与P203扩张有关,而且因为至少在苗语里有职业属性,所以基因一开始就是多元、本地的。苗瑶侗水的最新分布在哪里有?
nfz 发表于 2016-7-15 15:41
苗瑶侗水分布在西南地区,贵州湖南广西为多,P203年代最近共祖是8100年了和姓氏无关了,苗瑶侗水的P203主要是KM203,CTS8920为主和F492分开都8100年了。苗族瑶族P203估计才5%不到,侗族P203也才8%左右,水族32%左右比较多点不过都是KM203。
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8# 奋斗 F492下游分支尤其F656-现在还没有眉目呢
nfz 发表于 2016-7-15 15:53
F656-的F492目前论坛公开过的中通量好像都是,只能说下游还有好多支系,估计只有Y全序测了能分出不少支系。目前知道的F492下游支系还有CTS409,KM209,F65,算上F656的话是四支,我这四个SNP位点都测过,我估计是第五支了。目前公开数据来看可能台湾汉和福建汉比较多F656这支的。
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Han Chinese origin Hmong clans

     A great number of Miao/Hmong lineage clans were founded by Chinese men who married Hmong women, these distinct Chinese descended clans practice Chinese burial customs instead of Hmong style burials.[35]

     The Hmong children of Hmong women who married Chinese men was the origin of numerous China and South East Asia based Hmong lineages and clans, these were called "Chinese Hmong" ("Hmong Sua") in Sichuan, the Hmong were instructed in military tactics by fugitive Chinese rebels.[36]

      Marriages between Hmong women and Han Chinese men is the origin of a lot of Hmong lineages and clans.[37][38]

      Hmong women married Han Chinese men to found new Hmong lineages which use Chinese names.[39]

     Chinese men who married into Hmong clans have established more Hmong clans than the ritual twelve, Chinese "surname groups" are comparable to the Hmong clans which are patrilineal, and practice exogamy.[40][41][42][43]

     Hmong women married Han Chinese men who pacified Ah rebels who were fighting against the Ming dynasty, and founded the Wang clan among the Hmong in Gongxian county, of Sichuan's Yibin district.[44][45]

       Hmong women who married Chinese men founded a new Xem clan in a Hmong village (among Northern Thailand's Hmong), fifty years later in Chiangmai two of their Hmong boy descendants were Catholics.[46] A Hmong woman and a Chinese man married and founded the Lauj clan in Northern Thailand.[46]

      A marriage between a Hmong woman and a Chinese man resulted in northern Thailand's Lau2 clan being founded, another Han Chinese with the family name Deng founded another Hmong clan, Han Chinese men's marriages with Hmong women has led some ethnographers to conclude that Hmong clans in the modern era have possible all or partly have been founded in this matter.[47]

      Jiangxi Han Chinese are claimed as the forefathers of the southeast Guizhou Miao, and Miao children were born to the many Miao women married Han Chinese soldiers in Taijiang in Guizhou before the second half of the 19th century.[48]

      Imperially commissioned Han Chinese chieftaincies "gon native", with the Miao and were the ancestors of a part of the Miao population in Guizhou.[49]
The Hmong Tian clan in Sizhou began in the seventh century as a migrant Han Chinese clan.[50]

       Non-han women such as Miao women became wives of Han Chinese male soldiers who fought against the Miao rebellions during the Qing and Ming dynasties since Han women were not available.[51][52][53]

      The Ming dynasty Hongwu Emperor sent troops to Guizhou whose descendants became the Tunbao.[54] The origin of the Tunbao people traces back to when the Ming dynasty sent 300,000 Han Chinese male soldiers in 1381 to conquer Yunnan and the men married Yao and Miao women.[55]

      The presence of women presiding over weddings was a feature noted in "Southeast Asian" marriages, such as in 1667 when a Miao woman in Yunnan married a Chinese official.[56] Some Sinicization occurred, in Yunnan a Miao chief's daughter married a scholar in the 1600s who wrote that she could read, write, and listen in Chinese and read Chinese classics.[57]

     The Sichuan Hmong village of Wangwu was visited by Nicholas Tapp who wrote that the "clan ancestral origin legend" of the Wang Hmong clan, had said that several times they were married into be a Han Chinese and possibly one of these was their ancestor Wang Wu, there were two types of Hmong, "cooked" who sided with Chinese and "raw" who rebelled against the Chinese, the Chinese were supported by the Wang Hmong clan.[58] A Hmong woman was married by the non-Hmong Wang Wu according to The Story of the Ha Kings in Wangwu village.[59]  一一一一一一Hmong people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hm ... _origin_Hmong_clans
   -----------------------------------------------------

     说明许多苗瑶姓氏来自汉族而不是相反。
    另外,以本人多年的观察,感觉苗瑶的形成,应该与新石器末期以来来自中原的族群与两湖土著的长时期的混合有莫大的关系,现在苗族依稀的蚩尤崇拜或许与此有关~
物格而后知至,知至而后意诚,意诚而后心正,心正而后身修,身修而后家齐,家齐而后国治,国治而后天下平...
12# 奋斗 F65是F656下游吧。。
11# 奋斗 苗瑶侗水的P203主要是KM203,CTS8920为主
这句话的来源给一个?
11# 奋斗 珠江流域出现8000,5000年以上分支很正常,p203参与了大航海南岛(8000),和后来返航导致壮侗kra层的形成(5000),YFULL支持sagart的理论
我主要关心的是长江流域P203分支的层次到底是什么样的,所以苗瑶还要远重要于侗水及壮侗tai层
本帖最后由 nfz 于 2016-7-17 16:45 编辑

13# imvivi001 我已经给出 nee clan在苗语中的连锁关系,也就说倪这个字para-hmong。而且我说的是改汉姓,而不是clan name origin,你给的这段关系不大。
多年观察些了什么可以说说,蚩尤呵呵,感觉已经陷入了汉族无限大的paradigm,也就是一口气“创造”了2000年历史的,并且发明出蛮夷狄戎(甲金无方位+民族含义),sinitic快速扩张的战国时代paradigm。
我现在主要在比较para-hmong (匹配苗瑶语)和para-sinitic(匹配上古汉语)哪个包含更完整的信息这个Paradigm
因为苗瑶现在生活的地区在铁器时代之前都几乎森林无人区,para-hmong的最大范围(语言底层和地名),和现在的苗瑶地理上完全不重合,我的粗略研究看para-hmong而不是para-tai是长江中下游水上民族,而且是铁器时代前夜的最好切片标本
你有兴趣可以看看“禹“在苗语里是什么意思,就不会说什么蚩尤了
11# 奋斗 珠江流域出现8000,5000年以上分支很正常,p203参与了大航海南岛(8000),和后来返航导致壮侗kra层的形成(5000),YFULL支持sagart的理论
我主要关心的是长江流域P203分支的层次到底是什么样的,所以苗瑶还要 ...
nfz 发表于 2016-7-17 14:46
发你的中通量结果给我看看。
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本帖最后由 nfz 于 2016-7-17 21:58 编辑

18# 奋斗 有用都已经发了,F492以下只测了F656的下游(含F65)。倒是F533+,F492+关系不明
给个邮箱 ,直接转发严博原件
然而你说了两次的苗瑶侗水数据在哪里?
江苏盐城倪氏 O1a-F492+
,你好!我也是盐城的 O1a-F492+,听说盐城的倪姓都是一家的,是这样吗?
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