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Y染色体单倍群R从山东走向西方

本帖最后由 jinyufei 于 2017-12-21 14:20 编辑

Y染色体单倍群R从山东走向西方



在欧洲,凯尔特人、日耳曼人、斯拉夫人是携带Y染色体单倍群R的主要人群,主要携带的是Y染色体单倍群R的分支R1aR1b

从历史资料上看,凯尔特人、日耳曼人都是由东向西移居到中欧和西欧的。

从考古资料上看,在南俄的颜那亚文化(Yamnaya Culture)遗址中,多个人骨遗骸被测定出了有R1aR1b基因,年代估计是在4500年前,即大约为前2500年,这是欧洲最早的R基因。所以有很多人认为,欧洲的R基因是来自于颜那亚文化。而在亚洲北部西伯利亚中南部萨彦-阿尔泰地区米努辛斯克盆地的阿凡纳谢沃文化(AfanasievoCulture)遗址中,也发现了R1b基因,该人骨遗骸的年代经测定为前2874年。由于颜那亚文化与阿凡纳谢沃文化之间有很多的相似之处,所以有人认为,颜那亚文化中的R基因可能来自于阿凡纳谢沃文化。在颜那亚文化与阿凡纳谢沃文化的许多相似之处中,其中有一个相似之处就是都有枕骨变形现象。枕骨变形,也是大汶口文化的主要特征之一,而大汶口文化的年代要更早些。因而,颜那亚文化与阿凡纳谢沃文化的枕骨变形风俗,应当都是来自于大汶口文化。

从人类形体上看,身材高大的人群所携带的Y染色体单倍群R的比例也高,譬如西欧人就比南欧人更为高大。

从考古资料上看,年代估计在5000年前的大汶口文化山东济南章丘焦家遗址中,出土了多个身高超过1.8米的人骨遗骸,有的甚至超过1.9米(应该去测定一下他们的基因,看看有没有Y染色体单倍群R)。山东济南也是身材高大人群的故乡。

综上所述,可以推断,身材高大的Y染色体单倍群R,正是从山东济南(大汶口文化)出发,走向了西伯利亚(阿凡纳谢沃文化)和南俄(颜那亚文化),进而又走向了欧洲和全球。

那么,为什么Y染色体单倍群R在汉族中几乎没有呢?

这是因为大汶口文化的居民并不是汉族的主要来源。譬如在大汶口文化山东广饶傅家遗址中,发现最多的基因也是汉族中几乎没有的Y染色体单倍群N。而NR一样,只是在长城以北的人群中才有一定的比例。

从历史资料上看,北方民族的语言统属为阿尔泰语系,而阿尔泰语系民族的祖先几乎都曾经统一在匈奴之下。按照《史记》记载,匈奴的祖先是夏后氏。按照《国语》所述,夏后氏的祖先是帝颛顼。按照《山海经》所述,帝颛顼出自少昊氏。而少昊氏的遗迹正是大汶口文化。按照《吕氏春秋》所述,帝颛顼为北方黑帝。所以,帝颛顼是尚黑的,出自少昊氏北部的玄鸟氏。大汶口文化是以泰山为中心,济南和广饶都位于泰山以北,所以都属于居于北部的玄鸟氏的地盘。这里是尚黑风俗的故地,不仅起源了黑陶文化,也产出了帝颛顼、帝舜、大禹、夏后氏、匈奴等一大批子孙。而随着夏朝的灭亡,夏后氏的北迁,携带有Y染色体单倍群RN的族群也都全部北迁了。

那么,携带有Y染色体单倍群R的人是属于哪个人种呢?

在米努辛斯克盆地,在阿凡纳谢沃文化后继者奥库涅夫文化(OkunevoCulture)遗址中,出土的人骨遗骸是典型的蒙古人种,即黄种人,他们的基因也是R1b

而在晚于奥库涅夫文化年代的,譬如西伯利亚安德罗诺沃文化(Andronovo Culture)和新疆小河-古墓沟文化遗址中,出土的人骨遗骸是典型的欧罗巴人种,即白种人,而他们的基因则有R1a

由此可见,大汶口文化、阿凡纳谢沃文化、奥库涅夫文化以及东亚,携带R1aR1b的人自古至今始终就是黄种人。而抵达南俄(颜那亚文化)的R1aR1b的人,因为与那里的白种女人通婚,一代后是50%为白种人,两代后是75%为白种人,三代后就已经是87%为白种人了。从颜那亚文化的前2500年,到安德罗诺沃文化和小河-古墓沟文化的前2000年,这500年的时间足够完成人种变换了。所以,从颜那亚文化出来的R1aR1b,就都是白种人了。而在两者交界处的中亚和新疆,则形成了黄白混合人种。



大汶口太晚了,即使有R,也是后来来的。

不过我倒觉得R诞生于中国是很有可能的,经由西伯利亚向欧洲迁徙。
大汶口没有测出过R。。。R和身材高大也无必然联系
阿凡那羡沃比颜那亚早很多?
枕部变形也有多种,蒙古东部是变得扁平,HUNS是拉得很长,不一样
要说R,3万年前的马尔它男孩 就是了,不比大汶口早N年?
傻逼太多,懒得理会。
欧洲一万多年前就已经有了Y-R了,而且是Y-R1b,Y-R1a好像也不晚,七八千年。推荐一个网站:http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#3/47.99/79.37,这真是极好的,希望你不要感到膝盖中箭,被纠正错误学到新知识应该感激。
2

评分次数

http://blog.sina.com.cn/aganmu;安德(嗨,前一个无辜被封):
http://blog.sina.com.cn/kilarler
送你两个字,鲁吹
南方民族就是南方民族,不需要有些别有用心的蝗汗给我们满世界找祖宗,一会儿说通古斯是南方人一会儿又说日韩是南方人,你们编故事编得累不累
4# 癯鹤
不过欧洲王族可能真是从中国西北部和阿尔泰山西迁的。他们是先来东方取经,然后在中亚中东取景,回到欧洲小宇宙爆发了。我不是中国吹也不是西伯利亚吹(寒潮?冷飕飕),我是根据的考古和文化脉络合理推测的。
根据传说阿尔泰山可能就是昆仑。首先是Y-C大基地!而Y-C1是现代智人最早的全球化开启者(如果丹尼索瓦人不是更早的话)。另外Y-D、Y-E;Y-O、Y-N;Y-R、Y-Q甚至Y-I、Y-J,可能都是在阿尔泰山分离的。而Y-F的其他分支,如果不是这里,也是在其南边的南亚分离的。
Y-D、Y-E最早分离,Y-D向东,Y-E向西。
而Y-I、Y-J其次分离,一起向西夸父追日,其中Y-I在夏天去了太阳落山方向的西北欧,而Y-J在冬天去了太阳落山方向的中东。
Y-N、Y-O分离,然后都向东南方向的东亚东南亚迁徙,后来Y-N部分西迁。
Y-R、Y-Q的分离还有个前世因原,也就是Y-M、P、S随着部分Y-C1本来都从南亚到了萨胡尔大陆,后来部分Y-P也不知道哪根筋被神明挑动,竟然发挥水陆法会铁人N相运动的特长,一展身手从东南亚北上(双头鹰与眼镜王蛇是他们的标记),最终鬼神神差这部分Y-P到了阿尔泰山,帝之下都,然后自然分化,上帝很仁慈给他们指出了发展方向(一如给希伯来人的指引),Y-R向西,Y-Q向东。
所以我呼吁重视阿尔泰山考古,上帝很仁慈让那里寒冷,就是为了保留更多史前密卷一样的文物和遗骸信息呀!
http://blog.sina.com.cn/aganmu;安德(嗨,前一个无辜被封):
http://blog.sina.com.cn/kilarler
欧洲一万多年前就已经有了Y-R了,而且是Y-R1b,Y-R1a好像也不晚,七八千年。推荐一个网站:http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#3/47.99/79.37,这真是极好的,希望你不要感到膝盖中箭,被 ...
癯鹤 发表于 2017-12-22 08:00
虽然欧洲一万年前已经有了R,其实还有其他各种基因。但是,我认为,欧洲一万年前的基因到后来基本上都已绝种,即便有留存,也只是极少的,绝不是当今绝大多数欧洲人的基因来源。因为无论是欧洲人自己的历史,还是考古资料,都明确了欧洲人(凯尔特人、日耳曼人、斯拉夫人)都是由东向西迁移的,而颜那亚文化也已普遍被认为是印欧语系的发源地。所以研究颜那亚文化的来源才是关键。而之前的基因意义不大,最多也只是能用来可以证明某种基因很早就形成了而已,仅此而已。
整理了一下欧洲古人类遗骸的测定结果:
43000 BC:K
35000 BC:C-M130, C1b, F
30000 BC:C1a, C1a2
28000 BC:IJK
11000 BC:I2, R1b1
10000-7000 BC:I2, G2, R1a, R1b
7000-5000 BC:I2, G2, R1a, R1b, H2, C1, J, T, N1
5000-3000 BC:I2, G2, R1a, R1b, H2, C1, H1
3000-2000 BC:I2, G2, R1a, R1b, H2

讨论:
上述数据中,除了I2, R1a, R1b, J之外,其他在现在的欧洲人中已经极少。
而I2, G2, R1a, R1b, J,恰恰都存在于颜那亚文化区域中。
由此推断:现在欧洲人的基因主要来自于颜那亚文化,老欧洲人基本灭绝或仅存极少,这也与颜那亚文化是印欧语系发源地的说法相符。
本帖最后由 癯鹤 于 2018-1-4 14:25 编辑

最早的塞人岛夷是Y-C1系,其次是Y-DE系,再其次应该就是Y-K系了。话说回来,Y-P1是3——2万年以来很积极的一大波塞人岛夷,由山东走向西方而原位消失,倒是有可能呢。按照新陈代谢理论,近代Y-R系实现了塞人岛夷新飞跃,完成了两万四千年的神圣使命,也该从3000年前才开始发力的Y-O系欣欣向荣的新塞人岛夷新新那替这个接力棒,踵武前贤开拓进取了。只是不知素质达标否?对于贝加尔湖居民的忧心,我也是很吊胆的!

P1 (M45) likely originated in East Asia or Southeast Asia,[2][1] even though basal P1* (P1xQ,R) is now most common among individuals in Eastern Siberia and Central Asia.[5] Both P* and its precursor, K2b, reach their highest rates among members of the Aeta (or Agta) people of Luzon in the Philippines,[3][1] and; Luzon is also the only location where P*, P1 and haplogroup P2 (P-B253; K2b2b), the only other primary subclade of P*, have been found together.[6][1][2]

Modern distribution[edit]
P1* (P-M45*)[edit]The modern populations with high frequencies of P1* (P1xQ,R) are located in Central Asia and Eastern Siberia:
Modern South Asian populations also feature P1 (M45) at low to moderate frequencies.[8] In South Asia, P-M45 is most frequent among the Muslims of Manipur (Pangal, 33%), but this may be due to a very small sample size (nine individuals).
Levels of 6–14% P-M45* on islands such as Korčula and Hvar, in Dalmatia (modern Croatia), may be linked to migration, during the early medieval period, by Central Asian peoples such as the Avars (also known as the Pannonian Avars, Obri, Abaroi and Varchonites – and not to be confused with the Caucasian Avars).[9]
It is possible that many cases of P-M45* in Central Asia, South Asia and/or West Asia are unresolved members of less-researched subclades of Haplogroups R2 and Q.
(由维基“Y-P1”)
http://blog.sina.com.cn/aganmu;安德(嗨,前一个无辜被封):
http://blog.sina.com.cn/kilarler
9# 癯鹤
下面这个新闻说明3.5万年前类黄种人的特征应该已经形成。不然何以在不同环境东亚人与美洲土著趋同进化?而这个时间早于Y-P1分化出Y-R、Y-Q。而Y-P1是矮黑还不算黄种人,不过也奇怪,巴布亚人与美洲人、欧洲人都有高鼻深目特征,说明基因性状具有万古遗传系统影响。由欧洲人没有多少丹尼索瓦基因影响,说明漂变出白种人的基因类型在西欧亚是主流。即使Y-P是矮黑,快速迁移到中亚,然后分化成Y-Q、Y-R,但由Y-Q是在美洲人群祖先里形成的,说明漂变出黄种人的基因类型也应是东北亚地区主流。不过不好说Y-R最初是不是黄种人,只能说,他可能是黄白黑三种特征兼备(毕竟现代人种是长期地理演化形成的),称为广义黄种人也无所谓(毕竟还没跟西欧亚大规模混血时,离黑种人、白种人都远;而澳美人种则离黄种人较近),但是绝尘西去的Y-R1,倒是通婚融合基本成了纯白种人,美洲人群在3.5——2.5万年前渐行渐远,笑渐不闻声渐悄,东亚黄种人基因库也渐渐纯化。

The genes that rewrite American pre-history: Ancient DNA reveals how the first humans arrived on the continent in ONE wave more than 25,000 years ago and then split into three ancestral Native American groups
  • Study looked at the DNA of a Native American infant who died 11,500 years ago
  • She was part of a previously unknown group known as the 'Ancient Beringians'
  • This small clan mostly resided in Alaska and died out around 6,000 years ago
  • Study reveals human arrived in North America from Russia 25,000 years ago
  • They then split into three Native American groups, including Ancient Beringians
  • The team's findings represent a major shift in scientists' theories about how humans populated North America
ByHarry Pettit For Mailonline

Published: 18:03 GMT, 3 January 2018 | Updated: 19:37 GMT, 3 January 2018

  • [email=?subject=Read this: The genes that rewrite American pre-history: Ancient DNA reveals how the first humans arrived on the continent in ONE wave more than 25,000 years ago and then split into three ancestral Native American groups&body=The%20genes%20that%20rewrite%20American%20pre-history%3A%20Ancient%20DNA%20reveals%20how%20the%20first%20humans%20arrived%20on%20the%20continent%20in%20ONE%20wave%20more%20than%2025%2C000%20years%20ago%20and%20then%20split%20into%20three%20ancestral%20Native%20American%20groups%0A%0AThe%20international%20team%20of%20researchers%2C%20led%20by%20the%20Universities%20of%20Cambridge%20and%20Copenhagen%2C%20made%20the%20discovery%20after%20studying%20the%20%20genome%20of%20an%20ancient%20Native%20American%20infant.%0A%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsciencetech%2Farticle-5229261%2FAncient-DNA-rewrites-American-history.html%3Fito%3Demail_share_article-top%0A%0A%0AMost%20Read%20Articles%3A%0A%0AApple%20will%20replace%20your%20iPhone%20battery%20for%20%C2%A325%20EVEN%20if%20it%20passes%20a%20diagnostic%20test%20as%20lawsuits%20mount%20over%20the%20firm%27s%20deliberate%20slow-down%20of%20old%20handsets%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsciencetech%2Farticle-5231219%2FApple-replace-batteries-iPhone-6-later.html%3Fito%3Demail_share_article-top_most-read-articles%0A%0AThere%20is%20NO%20%27nuclear%20button%27%20on%20Trump%27s%20desk%3A%20Here%27s%20what%20would%20actually%20happen%20if%20the%20president%20decides%20to%20launch%20a%20nuclear%20attack%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsciencetech%2Farticle-5231257%2FTrump-boasts-bigger-nuclear-button-doesn-t-really-one.html%3Fito%3Demail_share_article-top_most-read-articles%0A%0AYour%20phone%20really%20IS%20spying%20on%20you%3A%20Hundreds%20of%20Android%20apps%20covertly%20use%20your%20phone%27s%20microphone%20to%20listen%20in%20on%20your%20TV%20habits%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fsciencetech%2Farticle-5231295%2FApps-use-phones-microphone-spy-TV-habits.html%3Fito%3Demail_share_article-top_most-read-articles%0A%0A]e-mail[/email]
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The DNA of a six-week-old Native American infant who died 11,500 years ago has rewritten the history of the Americas.
The young girl's genes reveal the first humans arrived on the continent 25,000 years ago - much earlier than some studies claim - before splitting into three Native American groups.
This is the first time that direct genetic traces of the earliest Native Americans have been identified.
The girl belonged to a previously unknown population of ancient people in North America known as the 'Ancient Beringians.'
This small Native American group resided in Alaska and died out around 6,000 years ago, researchers claim.
Scroll down for video

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Ancient DNA (six) reveals that humans arrived on the North American continent 25,000 years ago (two) before splitting into three Native American groups (three and four). The girl belonged to a previously unknown group known as the 'Ancient Beringians' (five)

ANCIENT BERINGIANSAccording to the researchers' timeline, a single, ancestral Native American population first emerged as a separate group around 36,000 years ago in northeast Asia.
Constant contact with Asian populations continued until around 25,000 years ago, when the gene flow between the two groups ceased.
This cessation was probably caused by brutal changes in the climate, which isolated the Native American ancestors.
At this point the group likely began crossing to Alaska via an ancient land bridge spanning the Bering Strait which was submerged at the end of the last Ice Age.
Then, about 20,000 years ago, that group split into two lineages: The Ancient Beringians and the ancestors of all other Native Americans.
The newly discovered group continued to breed with their Native American cousins at least until the Upward Sun River girl was born in Alaska around 8,500 years later.

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It is widely accepted that the earliest settlers crossed from what is now Russia into Alaska via an ancient land bridge spanning the Bering Strait which was submerged at the end of the last Ice Age.
Issues such as whether there was one founding group or several, when they arrived, and what happened next have been the subject of extensive debate.
Some scientists previously hypothesized about multiple migratory waves over the land bridge as recent as 14,000 years ago.

But the new study shows that this migration occurred in one wave, with sub-divisions of Native American groups forming later on.
It also shows that a previously undiscovered group named the 'Ancient Beringians' formed as part of this split, taking the known number of ancestral Native American groups from two to three.
'We didn't know this population existed,' said study coauthor Professor Ben Potter, an anthropologist at the University of Alaska Fairbanks.
'These data also provide the first direct evidence of the initial founding Native American population, which sheds new light on how these early populations were migrating and settling throughout North America.'
The international team of researchers, led by scientists from the Universities of Cambridge and Copenhagen, studied the full genome of an ancient Native American infant.
Named Xach'itee'aanenh t'eede gay, or Sunrise Child-girl, by the local Native community, the young girl's remains were found at the Upward Sun River archaeological site in Alaska in 2013.




Although the child had lived around 11,500 years ago, long after people first arrived in the region, her genetic information did not match either of the two recognised branches of early Native Americans.
These are referred to as Northern, residing mostly in what is now Alaska and Canada, and Southern, residing mostly in what is now the United States.
The girl appeared to have belonged to an entirely distinct Native American population, which they called Ancient Beringians.

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Named Xach'itee'aanenh t'eede gay, or Sunrise Child-girl, by the local Native community, the young girl's remains were found at the Upward Sun River archaeological site in Alaska in 2013 (excavations pictured)

WHEN DID HUMANS ARRIVE IN NORTH AMERICA? It is widely accepted that the earliest settlers crossed from what is now Russia into Alaska via an ancient land bridge spanning the Bering Strait which was submerged at the end of the last Ice Age.
Issues such as whether there was one founding group or several, when they arrived, and what happened next have been the subject of extensive debate.
The earliest evidence of human settlers on the continent dates to around 14,000 years ago, with the remains of an ancient village found 'older than Egyptian pyramids' found in April 2017.
Artefacts uncovered at the settlement, found on Triquet Island 310 miles (500km) northwest of Victoria, Canada, include tools for creating fires and fishing hooks and spears dating from the Ice Age.
Other research has suggested that humans reached North America between 24,000 and 40,000 years ago.
A 24,000-year-old horse jaw bone found in January 2017 in a cave in Alaska had the marks of stone tools, suggesting it was hunted by humans.

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Further analyses showed the group were separated from the same founding population as the Northern and Southern Native American groups, but that they separated from that population earlier in its history.
'The Ancient Beringians diversified from other Native Americans before any ancient or living Native American population sequenced to date,' said study lead author Professor Eske Willerslev, from the University of Cambridge.
'It's basically a relict population of an ancestral group which was common to all Native Americans, so the sequenced genetic data gave us enormous potential in terms of answering questions relating to the early peopling of the Americas.

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The DNA of a six-week-old Native American infant who died 11,500 years ago has rewritten North American history. The young girl lived at the Upward Sun River camp (artist's impression) in what is now Alaska

WHEN DID NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN NATIVES SPLIT? While the Ancient Beringians split from all other Native Americans around 20,000 years ago, the Northern and Southern groups diverged later on.
Based on previous research, this suggests they must have already been on the American continent south of the glacial ice when they diverged.
The divide probably occurred after their ancestors had passed through the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets.
These are two vast glaciers that covered what is now Canada and parts of the northern United States, but began to thaw around this time.
The ice sheet isolated southbound travellers from the Ancient Beringians in Alaska, who were eventually replaced or absorbed by other Native American populations.
Although modern populations in Alaska and northern Canada belong to the Northern Native American branch, the new analysis shows that these derive from a later 'back' migration north, long after the initial migration events.

[url=][/url][url=][/url][url=][/url][url=][/url]

'We were able to show that people probably entered Alaska before 20,000 years ago.
'It's the first time that we have had direct genomic evidence that all Native Americans can be traced back to one source population, via a single, founding migration event.'
The study compared data from the Upward Sun River remains with both ancient genomes, and those of numerous present-day populations.
According to the researchers' timeline, the ancestral Native American population first emerged as a separate group around 36,000 years ago in northeast Asia.

+6


The findings represent a major shift in scientists' theories about how humans populated North America. Pictured are Alaskan Natives filmed as part of the 1949 documentary Eskimo Hunters in Alaska - The Traditional Inuit Way of Life

NEW NORTH AMERICAN TIMELINE 35,000 years ago: Single founding ancestral Native American group split from East Asians
25,000 years ago: This group began crossing to North America in a single wave via an ancient land bridge between eastern Russia and Alaska
20,000 years ago: Founding population split into two groups: The Ancient Beringians and the ancestors of all other Native Americans
17,000-14,000 years ago: Native Americans then split into ‘Northern’ (aka Canada and Alaska) and ‘Southern’ (aka USA) branches
6,000 years ago: The Ancient Beringians were eventually absorbed into or replaced by Northern Native American populations

[url=][/url][url=][/url][url=][/url][url=][/url]

Constant contact with Asian populations continued until around 25,000 years ago, when the gene flow between the two groups ceased.
This cessation was probably caused by brutal changes in the climate, which isolated the Native American ancestors.
At this point the group likely began crossing to Alaska via an ancient land bridge spanning the Bering Strait which was submerged at the end of the last Ice Age.
Then, about 20,000 years ago, that group split into two lineages: The Ancient Beringians and the ancestors of all other Native Americans.
The newly discovered group continued to breed with their Native American cousins at least until the Upward Sun River girl was born in Alaska around 8,500 years later.
Dr Jos Vctor Moreno-Mayar, from the University of Copenhagen, said: 'It looks as though this Ancient Beringian population was up there, in Alaska, from 20,000 years ago until 11,500 years ago, but they were already distinct from the wider Native American group.'
The researchers also showed that the Northern and Southern Native American branches only split between 17,000 and 14,000 years ago.

+6


The study showed that the Northern and Southern Native American branches only split between 17,000 and 14,000 years ago. While the Northern group stayed mostly in Canada, the Southern group migrated to what is now the USA. Pictured are Native Americans in the US

Based on previous research, this suggests they must have already been on the American continent south of the glacial ice when they diverged.
The divide probably occurred after their ancestors had passed through the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets.
These are two vast glaciers that covered what is now Canada and parts of the northern United States, but began to thaw around this time.
The ice sheet isolated southbound travellers from the Ancient Beringians in Alaska, who were eventually replaced or absorbed by other Native American populations.

+6


Named Xach'itee'aanenh t'eede gay, or Sunrise Child-girl, by the local Native community, the young girl's remains were found at the Upward Sun River archaeological site in Alaska in 2013

Although modern populations in Alaska and northern Canada belong to the Northern Native American branch, the new analysis shows that these derive from a later 'back' migration north, long after the initial migration events.
'One significant aspect of this research is that some people have claimed the presence of humans in the Americas dates back earlier - to 30,000 years, 40,000 years, or even more,' Professor Willerslev added.
'We cannot prove that those claims are not true, but what we are saying, is that if they are correct, they could not possibly have been the direct ancestors to contemporary Native Americans.'



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5229261/Ancient-DNA-rewrites-American-history.html#ixzz53C1MatYO
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http://blog.sina.com.cn/aganmu;安德(嗨,前一个无辜被封):
http://blog.sina.com.cn/kilarler
有一个疑问,既然田园洞人没测出Y,那根据什么说 田园洞人没有直系后裔传下来,常染和Y是两回事吧,经过4万年,如果有后代存世,那虽然Y相同,但是后代和4万年前的祖先,DNA片断也应该没有多少重合。还有我觉得都测得那么细了,那至少 C,D,E,F这样的级别应该能分出来吧。或者说连Y都没有,怎么确定是走出非洲的那批,还有可能是父系尼人,丹人,母系是走出非洲的那批呢,如果拿常染说事,那父系尼人,和走出非洲的那批人混了100代,常染看不出来什么尼人成分了。总之,连Y都没测出来,就推出各种结论,这结论可靠性又有多少呢。
大凌河 发表于 2018-1-16 09:23
大凌河这质疑非常有重量。假如测得的不是现代智人体系的Y染色体单倍群,那或许也没法命名之。比如已经测试的尼安德特人和丹尼索瓦人,还未见有Y- chromosome DNA haplogroup 和 mt- DNA haplogroup 名号,虽然说田园洞人是现代人,但万一他是尼人或丹人父系后裔,只不过经历了N代以上跟现代智人的杂交,基本上常染和mt-DNA都已经成了现代智人类型,这种情况会不会有呢?窃以为按逻辑应该是很正常的事儿。从性选择取向来说,现代人妹子爱野蛮人,似乎比现代人汉子爱野蛮女要更常见多了,比如汉女、欧女爱昆仑奴的事例比比皆是,反之情况甚少,甚至父权制时代往往还会有限制闺门的习俗——不知道是不是从丹尼索瓦人遗传的,若如此,丹尼索瓦人外婚制娶现代人女子,导致自己密度不大的族群消亡,也是极有可能的。那也就是Y-BT可能是欧亚土著基因,而Y-A是非洲原始现代人群,两者分离时间也就二三十万年,至于常染表现的大几十万的隔离,主要是因为长期分离造成的,甚至Y-A也不过是欧亚人群早期进入非洲的罢了,只不过后来因为瓶颈事件造成非洲人口增加,欧亚人群消亡,使得基因库以非洲人和出非洲人为主罢了。因为年代古老,根据有限的尼人、丹人骸骨命名其Y染单倍群,看起来意义也不大,但是最好能有数据框架,以利于比较。而不是说没了就没了,灭绝的一干二净!
又想起来,4万年前是一个很重要的时间节点,还有可能是Y-P与Y-MS分离的日子,东南亚和东北亚还有西南亚都有不少Y-P,有没可能这个时间点是Y-P在东南亚形成,然后泛舟北上(可能跟气候变化有关,是一个快速过程,所以后来却在东亚极少留下早期类群),后来西进,然后分化出Y-R、Y-Q,Y-Q又大部分东去美洲(黄种人特征形成时期),Y-R大部分西去(白种人特征逐渐形成),后来两者又有少量回归昆仑山——阿尔泰山。当然Y-Q也有少量西进欧洲中东的,说不定东亚早期也有Y-R来到也未可知。现代东亚黄种人的基因主体当时在中国大陆本部(比如Y-NO,可能在4万年前从阿尔泰山迁徙而来),当时也是刚产生,数量肯定也不多,但是排外(估计主要是性选择不同,那时还没有后来的白人妹子让黄人热爱,而双方都有了丹尼索瓦式对外来野鸟的防备),所以两者没有融合,而且东亚人赶走了这一小波北上的巴布亚毛人(这么来看东亚人祖先相对于田园洞人,倒像是侵略者,把他们这些北京人赶走,然后逐渐接管了老北京的地面,征拆建设最初的黄笃都),这是早期Y-P沿海岸北上经草原西迁绕过东亚的原因。当然后来Y-N又杀向昆仑,不期然经过proto-涿鹿之战,战胜毛民,铸了鼎,煮了鸭子和鹿(可命名为“鸭鹿羹”),把那里当做新首都。此时Y-R、Y-Q已经有了发达的工匠技艺,他们就是共工部落呀,不甘心,于是有了祝融共工大战,共工怒撞不周山!失败后成立“公鸡会”,水漫金山(金微山),打算反帝反殖(法海和尚,穿黄袍的,白娘子——白人亚马孙战士、小青——Y-Q族的女子)!阿尔泰山大陨铁就是那时的天象,我就奇了怪了,国家征缴,给牧民些微补偿,于法合理于舆情无赖,这还倒罢了,到底是看重其经济价值还是科研价值呢?为嘛不检测陨石压坏烧焦处有机物和土壤样本的碳十四、热释光数据呢?多么有价值的信息,一动就丢了!呜呼!此所谓窃钩者诛,窃国者为猪宸封后温州有钱炒房炒蒜卖家卖地呐东武庄园卡塔尔世界最富者欤?
既然有这么惊险的史前秘辛,又是我等民粹民科所意淫强国做梦成家的好材料,为什么付大美子不给多透露呢?莫非怕得罪导师?抑或是我国色目当家,深度嫉恨此种史前耻辱,怕影响尚黑政基,所以强力压制之故呢?
http://blog.sina.com.cn/aganmu;安德(嗨,前一个无辜被封):
http://blog.sina.com.cn/kilarler
本帖最后由 癯鹤 于 2018-4-17 18:00 编辑

恭喜欧人、美人也达本还原了!Y-P大逆时针经东亚沿海到黑龙江再西进南西伯利亚,分化出Y-R、Y-Q,哥俩(当然可能辈分上差了多少代也说不准)受到了神启,或者就是心血来潮,一个说想看看日没处啥样子,一个说想看看日出处啥样子。于是Y-R西迁(至少末次冰河期已经在欧洲部分地带,比预期的略早,再以后又有东迁的),Y-Q东迁,重新跟东西伯利亚人融合形成亚美人种,大部分东去美洲。很装酷的历史!
一样很壮阔的是,怀疑Y-K2a原来和其他Y-K在巽他大陆很好地生活着,可能看到异常天象(比如陨石、彗星)或地质变动(火山爆发地震大海啸),动了旅游的心!一个跟头十万八千里,先在中亚欧洲溜达了成千上万年,忽然某天有个会占卜的说受到了神启,想要创业传新,必须去东南方(做事者必于东南,然而神明没有启示收工时常在西北么,让Y-R系捡了大便宜)!于是一帮人孔雀东南飞,就像现代去深圳那般!到了中国的某个地方(或者就是到达了南海边,画了一个圈,然后Y-O就神奇地诞生了;当然Y-O更可能是在中国西北部甚至南西伯利亚诞生,然后基本全部随着Y-K2a父系部队继续南下),留下了Y-O,然后故事就有曲折,又有新的占卜者说得到了神启,说东北方那艮位很不错,万物之所成终,而所成始也!真是福地(确实是,Y-P经过这里发达了),于是有转折北上,后来诞生了Y-N(这字母转折了好几次,不过也还不算多,Y-M、Y-S的祖先Y-K2b都没少跑,最后定在了新几内亚那嘎达)!Y-K2a更有少数遵从原来的神启,一直走到了亚洲大陆的最东南头(因为中亚高山阻挡,原来的部队也有分支,一个小分支到了印度),也就是马来西亚,与那里经过更多曲折安居巽地巽他大陆的Y-K2b哥们儿还有Y-C、D互相PK,没沾着啥光,倒是没少吃挂落儿,人丁一直不旺!直到很多很多很多年后其近支兄弟Y-O卷土重来,才算圈占了这片绿林海岛!这帮人仍然还是遵从“做事者必于东南”的传统,有一部分一直航行到波利尼西亚!北上的Y-N系却跟Y-O兄弟截然不同,萨满们得到了“收功实者常在西北”的神谕,于是向北方、西方开拓!也是小有成就,把个西伯利亚、东北欧玩了个遍!
神奇呀,探索天地四方的Y-R(少昊)、Q(伏羲)、O(祝融)、N(颛顼),四大天王?

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Ultimately ANE's paternal ancestors bearing R1 probably had a Southeast Asian origin deep in the Paleolithic (>30kya), but this group moved counter-clockwise across East Siberia into West Eurasia, and ultimately absorbed lots of West Eurasian forager DNA. I've seen it claimed Mal'ta Boy possessed as much as 30% East Eurasian ancestry, though this is tough to figure out because we lack preceding ENA aDNA.

But by the time Mal'ta Boy's descendants advance to the East European forest zone, most of the EA ancestry had been diluted; EHG is probably 97%+ West Eurasian.

上面是anthrogenica上老外对此的态度,认为R是沿中国沿海逆时针从东西伯利亚一直走到西伯利亚的。

搞了半天原来 原始印欧人,什么PIE都来自于东方。
skyyrie 发表于 2018-4-17 16:04 [url=http://www.ranhaer.com/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=527157&ptid=37432][/url]
http://blog.sina.com.cn/aganmu;安德(嗨,前一个无辜被封):
http://blog.sina.com.cn/kilarler
恭喜欧人、美人也达本还原了!Y-P大逆时针经东亚沿海到黑龙江再西进南西伯利亚,分化出Y-R、Y-Q,哥俩(当然可能辈分上差了多少代也说不准)受到了神启,或者就是心血来潮,一个说想看看日没处啥样子,一个说想看看日 ...
癯鹤 发表于 2018-4-17 17:01
你的推断基本上和外国网友差不多
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14017-Are-Yamnaya-people-more-chinese-before-they-mixed-with-local-caucasian-EEF-and-WHG

这个是我发帖问他们的,好像欧洲人对自己的东方血统不是那么避讳
Truth or Happiness Never Both
13# skyyrie
说起来还得佩服代天言道的天官后裔史官大牛司马迁老先生的那句话:“做事者必于东南,而收功实者常在西北。”
另外一点,就是上帝之鞭自东向西甩过去,常有改变历史的大事件!非常奇怪,这是跟地球自转方向相反的,但是跟太阳升落方向一致,太阳神的力量?阿蒙!阿门!阿美利剑!
Y-K2a起于东南(可能是东南亚,或者更早在印度就跟Y-K大部队分手?),然后迈向西北,在欧洲和西伯利亚转了很久,学习了一些新技能,并多吸收了些尼人基因,然后修炼得差不多了,七剑下天山,杀向中国摘桃子!然后Y-O、N诞生,成功做了神州的新主人——主体人群(声明:新老亚洲理论并不合理,因为Y-C、D也是江山代有能人出,从来不是东亚失败族群)收了一个大国实呀!
Y-K2b更不简单,同样是起于东南(东南亚),然后泛舟北上,因为Y-C、D、N、O在东亚的海防牢固,这些海盗没能钻空子占便宜(刚起于东南,不能跟西北收功实者抗衡),一路北奔到了南西伯利亚(3万年前古老版的祝融共工大战),然后Y-R西进、Y-Q东进,西进的Y-R经过两万年的修炼,博采老欧洲众长,吸收中东北上的新时期农民的基因和文化。再经过几千年上帝之鞭(他们其实就是最早的上帝之鞭)的锻炼,修炼成了近代欧洲列强。作为西北大佬,几乎征服了整个世界!尤其是作为上帝之鞭整个抽了地球一大圈,自东向西到达新大陆,到东南亚(达本还源)、东印度,对东亚几乎形成了反包围!呜呼!虽然海防千疮百孔,但是亏的近代有左宗棠公(黄帝之臣左彻的后裔,三苗徙三危以变西戎,湖湘子弟定天山)重视塞防,为我华夏争取回圣山阿尔泰大昆仑龙兴之地(准格尔也是左翼的意思,与左公姓氏可谓天作之合,上帝密码)!有西北,帝之下都,上帝眷顾,王母抬爱,桃儿可待,华夏复兴可也!
Y-K系的PK,也是真的惊心动魄!华山论剑会有期,东方不败一定的!因为在科技创新型时代,还是需要东南方做事呀!
这两个天机,几万年历史一再证明,希望有识者志之,莫乱国家!
http://blog.sina.com.cn/aganmu;安德(嗨,前一个无辜被封):
http://blog.sina.com.cn/kilarler
看到坛上确实惊心动魄华山论剑一般PK,我这外行不容置喙,也不打紧。
但是看到skyyrie被批得很痛苦,我也于心不忍!首先想再补上一刀,skyyrie硬气功般直来直去辩论,有点过于机械地思索问题。辩论那么多,丝毫没有把问题引向正确方向,太没逻辑性!
我怎么这么无情地说skyrrie君的不是了呢?这一补刀不会酿成人命吧!下面给打下支持!不过我是外行,也只是在看热闹时考虑了点内家拳的优化逻辑,油滑些思索问题,毕竟我的假说,还是跟skyyrie君一致的,s军不支,我应该奋勇上前,引开火力!而且既然是假说,也不怕人家解剖,揭破了更好,看破历史,那就是大伙儿讨论的意义!假说因为没古DNA支持,也没看过大拿文献,所以很苍白净空。不过我相信假说的逻辑,还是可以经受PK的。
我说到哪儿?我自己都搞不准了!逻辑,对,逻辑很重要,有时候比刻舟求剑的证据重要!虽然相对来说,我是功夫喜剧里的外行菜鸟!
首先对塞-徒大侠深表敬意!自从空空道人预言本坛酱油Y-C2新星笑傲江湖,我是一只翘首以待,盼望见到新理论、新知识!盼望Y-C2牛人传道授业解惑!塞-徒大侠应运而出,江湖蓝海幸甚,泡菜坛子菜鸟幸甚!
又是废话一堆,源于赞美咱没真才实学,要充胖子得先打肿脸!
大伙脸部都大了,也没见我这包子吃出馅儿,现在就抖包袱!
我以为如上所述Y-P东南亚起源北上西征东迁形成Y-R、Y-Q,时间不短,时间很早,不过一开始是快速迁徙(没古DNA证据,大家结合现有认识都是有这个逻辑)。而且是一次定点播种出苗的过程,也就是到了南西伯利亚才出了那俩苗,在时间并不长而路途漫长的过程中,中间没留下多少活口,也就是这是场为了诗和远方说走就走的旅行。但是马尔塔男孩的遗物及遗迹,说明除了有源自热带的眼镜蛇崇拜,从服装到武器,其实已经是西亚欧类型占主要比例,也就是演化出Y-Q、R时,已经有了西亚欧常染的多次混血。Y-P北上时间大概在三万年以前(具体参考没找到,完全是猜测,见谅),不论Y-Q还是蒙古人种的诞生时间都还是个谜,反正最初的Y-P是类似棕黑人种的。所以不讨论Y-P到演化出Y-R、Q时他们是不是类东亚欧蒙古人种,其实应该是西欧亚混东南亚为主,因为既然是快速迁徙,沿途极少吸收东欧亚基因(除了菲律宾原装矮黑的)。西欧亚混矮黑可能接近黄种人样貌,也是可能的。不过从基因库来说,并不是现在所谓的东欧亚。
演化出Y-R、Q劳燕分飞,分别成为欧美人种,也肯定因为人少(单倍型刚诞生,而土著又不是没有)跟欧美土著分别通婚混血。持续而缓慢不停添加各种人群基因混融演化成欧洲白人和印第安人。印第安人的演化恰好有白令吉亚女孩做标尺,也就是距今2.5万年,可能类似黄种人的美洲人祖先已经形成。那时,黄种人还有没有其他形成地点?现在因为我国没有数据,不好说。马尔塔等的类黄种人特征,也可能是跟Y-Q系或与Y-Q系通婚的原东西伯利亚人混血造成,不过以Y-R跟西欧亚混血的基因为主,说明马尔塔男孩一诞生就不是黄种人,因为所处位置偏东和年代很早,难以说更早的Y-R是不是更接近黄种人,假如形成地偏东,或许更接近黄种人(毕竟Y-Q最终接近黄种人就是这个原因)。
假如偏西,则不好说(很大可能是西欧亚类型,但是我怀疑Y-NO的祖先Y-K2a是从西方迁来,所以,入夏则夏,入夷则夷,再经演化,才成新人,隔离日久,各成典型,刻舟求剑,差了时空)。
http://blog.sina.com.cn/aganmu;安德(嗨,前一个无辜被封):
http://blog.sina.com.cn/kilarler
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